The Moe Norman Legend: Todd Graves & the Single-Plane Swing

Matt Considine (00:01.835)
Welcome to the backdrop untold stories in golf. I'm your host, Matt Constantine here with our cohost, the professor, professor, doctor. Good morning. How are you?

The Professor (00:13.262)
Hanging in there, you know, this is my nose down onto the grinder, sort of part of the semester, try to get six months done in these first two months so we can open up the golf season after that. So we're running, we can still get sleep, but we're running a little low on just work energy because we're trying to put in those 10 to 12 hour days in and out.

Matt Considine (00:31.319)
That's what we're here for on these mornings together is to bring the energy right back. I'm getting some fire, some ammo coming at us from our fans, loyal listeners. They're saying the dog day is a winner. I can't get out on the course, but I need you two nerds in my ear. What's up with the releases this year? And I'm here to report.

that the professor and I, we've been doing some things behind the scenes. know, podcasts aren't all about just jumping on, talking to your buddy, listening to two yuckleheads, make some comments about this game of golf. There's a work that goes into it we want to make it better for everyone. So, rest assured loyal listeners, we got some really exciting surprises up our sleeves this year for you guys. And a lot of the shows are going to start hitting just as I hope.

the snow recedes and things warm out outside. So we'll be getting you guys geared up and ready to go for the season. you worry. But I myself, professor, I've been off the interwebs, I've been doing nothing. I sent one golf tweet in the last nine months and I don't wanna toot my own horn, but apparently it goes viral. I had no idea. I sent it and then we said, did you see this?

The Professor (01:43.086)
I'm proud of you.

The Professor (01:50.318)
Yeah, I know where you're going with this. This is amazing. Well, I'm the one that sent it to you. But it was sent to me by who sent it? It was sent to me, I forget who sent it. I might have to look back at my, you keep talking, I'm gonna look back at my receipt.

Matt Considine (01:55.681)
Did you? You're one of those people.

Matt Considine (02:01.869)
I was just, it's so, well, as a, you know, proprietor of golf business in New Club, I always felt like, man, it'd be great to have the things I sent there always go, but it's always the stupid stuff, isn't it, that people resonate with the most? I literally just, my kids, my grandma and grandpa got our kids into like classic cartoons all of a sudden. So now it's not Bluey, it's like Donald Duck and Goofy and.

The Professor (02:17.614)
It is, yeah.

Matt Considine (02:30.285)
to Tiny Tunes. I'm like, oh cool, we'll look at some old stuff. They asked for Donald Duck. I search Disney app or whatever for Donald Duck. It gives a bunch of results. There's a 1938 golf episode of Donald Duck and I'm like, all right, well hey, we gotta throw this on, right? And I'm sitting there watching this eight minute episode with my kids and it's Uncle Donald with the three, Huey, Dewey, and Louie and they're all in shenanigans.

I'm looking at the backdrop of this golf episode and it's the most beautiful golf course I've ever seen. It is very clearly either Cypress Point or Pebble or something like that. And I'm like, man, 1938. So I started kind of looking stuff up. like, did the writer of this, is he a member of Cypress? Like where did he get the inspiration from? Is Donald Duck intended to be?

a member of Cypress. And so that's what I said. go, had no idea Donald Duck was a member of Cypress. And sure enough, Golf Channel got ahold of it. Chad Mom, who we've talked to in the past, you know, from full swing and Netflix got ahold of it. of course my kids are the ones that give us 15 minutes of fame out there on the golf Twitterverse.

The Professor (03:45.155)
That's, I did figure out who it was. was Chico from Midtown is the one that brought it brought it to our attention. Shout out to our friend who were who will remain faceless. I gotta add, mean, Donald out there playing Cyprus, no pants. mean, very progressive, very progressive club.

Matt Considine (03:50.921)
Nothing gets past Chico. He's gonna find maybe he made it viral I guess

Matt Considine (04:02.309)
Bold move. Bold move not putting any pants on. All of them. No pants. Well, anyways, that's my only golf news.

The Professor (04:08.238)
Yeah, that was when he brought up attention that was yeah, but proud of you though I'm proud of you at the no golf tweets and staying off the staying off the social medias I mean maybe not good for our branding and growth But I think it's very good for your personal health which then just makes the show better You said we don't do this just to cut it up with ourselves I mean, I think that's 99 % of reason we do this it keeps you energized and healthy not not being on the social media I'm fine with that and we can just talk to each other without without an audience

Matt Considine (04:37.709)
100%. And as we've said to each other, as we prepare for what we're titling the Bag Drop 3.0, the professor and I, we can talk about anything in the game of golf, but it's gotta be something that we get excited about. And today, our guests, we are both very mutually excited about, because I can date back to when I first met the professor, us having conversations around the single plane swing and a gentleman named Moe Norman.

The Professor (04:51.171)
Yes.

Todd Graves (04:52.587)
you

Matt Considine (05:07.025)
And today, I don't know if there's anybody else. I don't, I don't think there's anybody else on the planet, better versed in both those than a Todd graves founder of graves golf, who, we we've been following for quite a while and he's, he's the, the guy to talk about both these things. He's leading instructor of the Moe Norman single plane swing. I think there's even a nickname in there. I've heard about little Moe from his ability to replicate it.

The Professor (05:07.198)
Ugh, I get goosebumps every time you talk about bringing up the name more nowhere and just goosebumps.

Matt Considine (05:37.073)
replicate Mo's swing, so we gotta ask him about that. just had a unique opportunity to spend time with Mo Normand. Most people listening probably know of Mo, but some don't know the story. I know we're not gonna have time to get into the whole story today, but just having Todd and his authority around this non-mainstream concept, I think that's another part of this that really excites me, is I like.

Todd Graves (05:54.059)
you

The Professor (06:00.6)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Considine (06:02.285)
It's effective, but it's still not the mainstream coaching practicum that people adopt and drove, but it's both his knowledge of that and the personal connection to a legend in a guy that just seems so fascinating. So it's gonna be really fun for you listeners that have taught on today. It was really fun for Kevin and I.

The Professor (06:22.445)
Yeah, you.

The Professor (06:25.934)
I know it's going to be at least fun to one listener because he's been chirping like you mentioned audience where where episodes and and my dad I think he just listens to is you know to be kind to be a good dad and you know bump up our listener account but when I mentioned this one I just all of a sudden got this flurry of text of pictures of notes on different diagrams and you know the one plane and just all these questions I got to ask him this you got to ask him this for me so I know I knew that at least one listener will be as soon as this thing drops he's gonna have alert on he'll probably gonna listen to it five times so

Matt Considine (06:54.135)
Chuckie Fairways. Chuckie Fairways, he has probably a decent amount in common with Moe and Donald Duck in a way. I think I could see Chuckie playing with his pants off once or twice.

The Professor (06:56.046)
Chuck E. Farrow miss.

The Professor (07:03.182)
He can talk like Donald Duck. He grew up entertaining us as kids talking like Donald Duck. He can do one of the best impersonations you will ever hear. And talking about a guy that tinkers with his swing and wants to do things more than anyone else. They call him Chuckie Fairway because he never misses a fairway, but yet he's always complaining about his swing.

Matt Considine (07:10.391)
Well...

Matt Considine (07:21.485)
I was going to say, if he, there is a billboard potentially for this and, and, uh, I know he's come and go with different philosophies of his game, but, uh, that guy, that dude does not miss a fair way. He's a hell of a 20, whatever handicap to have. Cause I just don't see him. Um, Hey, what's, uh, facts professor. Do you have some practicum to get our brains?

The Professor (07:37.806)
Your best partner in Scotland golf, that's for sure. Nobody will beat his team.

Matt Considine (07:50.583)
fired for the show.

The Professor (07:52.011)
We got one. We got one. Let me just start here. What's your favorite type of dog? And you can't pick a golden retriever. You can't pick a golden retriever. You can't. We're taking golden retriever off the table. Shout out Gypsy, who my wife has claimed we will steal one day. So just remember that day is coming where Gypsy will just be gone. You'll know she'll be in Athens, Georgia.

Matt Considine (07:56.527)
My wife would leave me if I didn't say Golden Retriever.

Matt Considine (08:08.599)
favorite.

Matt Considine (08:12.491)
Yeah, I like playful dogs, so if I can't go with that, I'm gonna go. I mean, I grew up with a sheep dog, kind of a hybrid. I really like the Australian sheep dog, I'll go with that.

The Professor (08:21.038)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a good one I'm gonna pick gold and gold retriever cuz I don't own one and the Dachshund would be second because obviously our dog the Dachshund but So look at leading the fact today. I was down in Argentina on Buenos Aires for Jaime and Maggie's wedding shout out to the newly wedded couple and man you talk about a dog dog hungry community just dogs

Matt Considine (08:27.841)
Get a good vacuum.

The Professor (08:45.038)
Everywhere walking around with their owners typically off leash just everybody owns a dog They have all these dog walkers that have 20 leashes tied to their waist walking around so I talked to ask Jaime about it like man What's up with the love of dog down here? He's like? best or most Households in all the world that own dogs are in Argentina 80 % of households I'm sure households carrying weight not people but like whatever classifies as a household 80 % of them have pets 78 % have dogs

Matt Considine (09:06.029)
Whoa.

The Professor (09:14.894)
That puts them number one in the world for that. Follows up by Philippines at 79%, Thailand 71%, US 70%, Mexico 70%, Australia 69%, Brazil 69%, Indonesia 67%, New Zealand 64%, Chile 64%.

Matt Considine (09:15.469)
No way.

Matt Considine (09:30.689)
Wow, I've been to Thailand. remember seeing so many dogs. There, it almost felt like they weren't domesticated though. Like there's a lot of wild dogs running through the streets of Bangkok and stuff. Is it like that in Argentina?

The Professor (09:38.285)
Yeah.

The Professor (09:43.023)
No, Buenos Aires, no. They are just, they're all domesticated with people. lot of them just, they behave well enough. If you're in a major city, Buenos Aires is huge, that they just behave well enough. They stick within a foot of their owner as they walk without a leash. And people just accept that. You know, I didn't touch the golf course. You know, I didn't get out to the jockey club. I said next time, this was a wedding trip, you know, spend time with the couple and the families and my wife. Cause I know we'll go back. Amazing, amazing city, amazing country.

Matt Considine (09:55.661)
Wow. Golf dogs? What about golf dogs?

Matt Considine (10:08.885)
I can't believe you didn't take the sticks. I cannot believe that. With some of those McKenzie's on your footsteps down there, that's all right. That's right. Take me with you.

The Professor (10:12.856)
So, I know, it's good for the, just like a social media purge is good. You know, I think it's, I find it very healthy to take some trips where I don't have the clubs on me. So I just never think about it. Don't try to fit that extra round in. Don't, you know, no, I can just be present with, you know, my wife and whoever else we're traveling with in this case, this case of four day wedding. So we want to be locked in on that and enjoy the city.

Matt Considine (10:33.719)
Here, Good for you, good for you.

Matt Considine (10:40.469)
Hey, two quick things before we get to our special guest today. Within New Club, things are cooking behind the scenes this winter. It is very exciting to get closer to kind of the, know, we don't have an official kickoff, but kickoff for the 2026 season, Chicago, Atlanta, so many kickass monthly medals. There's going be a competition every single week, weekend for both our chapters. And that is like,

a new age for New Club. cannot wait for our members to see it. If you guys aren't a member yet and you live in those markets, check us out. Newclub.golf. gives you all the info you need on what we're about, where we play, who we play with, more importantly. And gosh, gets me going. The other thing is in my backyard where we're currently under two feet of snow and more coming, Northeast Ohio, Professor, we have had our

first kind of sim meetup in January. 40 people, I don't know what this says about the people of Northeast Ohio, but we had 20 RSVPs. I had enough chicken fingers and pizza for 20. We had 40 people come. And I don't even know if I got to talk to everybody, but it was an unbelievable day. And we had so much fun just making swings, making laps, having a good time, looking forward to the season ahead.

Todd Graves (11:53.834)
Starbucks.

Matt Considine (12:05.131)
The next one of those, we're going to do four more before Northeast Ohio is launched. If you're back in the show and that's news that is happening, it's going to be our third chapter. June 1st of this year, we'll be ready to go. But before then, we're going to do a bunch of these meetups. And the next one's February 27th, 2 to 5 p.m. at Ohio Golf Club, right next door to the historic Firestone Country Club. So our Brandon Boggs over there, another Titleist ambassador and his team.

are gonna be hosting us for the afternoon. It's a sick facility, man. I can't think of a larger short game area in the middle of their Ten Sims. Like it's big, it's bold, it's a place where you walk in and you can just feel the energy of getting better. Yes, there's some ability to socialize, but they don't have the food and drink skew. This place is about getting better at your golf game.

perfect segue to our guests here today. Thanks as always to our friends at Titleist, the all new SM11s professor. I was a little behind the eight ball because I unplugged from a lot of stuff here and was focused on getting things done in the background. It almost caught me off guard, but the SM11s, I got my order in. didn't, know, last couple of years I got fit back to back from my wedges.

and I did see some adjustments. I'm going with what my fitting was in 2025. I feel good about it. I'm not making a lot of major changes in swing and setup. So I know that's it. My first recommendation for anybody listening is go get fit. Go get fit for your wedges by a certified Titleist fitter at Titleist.com. They're doing events to do just that. But if you do have that fitting under your belt and you do feel comfortable with you guys, there is no experience like that customization process on Titleist.

The Professor (13:45.432)
Mm-hmm. 100%.

Matt Considine (13:59.915)
Like they keep upping the game with it. I can't get over how, I think what I admire most is how complex and detailed it is, but how simple they make it, how simple they make the process. you know, over the next couple of weeks, you're probably gonna hear us talk about the advancements, the CG, the bounces, grinds, the groove designs. But at the end of the day, it boils down to cleaner contact with that ball, controlled flight.

The Professor (14:11.693)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Considine (14:29.293)
and the right amount of spin. You know, I think we think about spin as more spin. It's the right amount of spin for you and your game. So check them out. No other wedge is more trusted than the Titleist Voke SM11 wedges on the PGA Tour. Check them out for yourself over at Titleist.com. Professor, without further ado, let's get on to our man top.

Todd Graves, welcome to The Bag Drop.

Todd Graves (14:56.201)
Thanks for having me. really appreciate being here. By the way, Cypress point, I just played Cypress last Monday for the first time, just so you know. So was that the course that was in the Donald duck? Was that the course? I'll have look at it.

Matt Considine (15:07.373)
It had to have been, man. I think it's more Cyprus, less Pebble, but that could be debatable. How was that? I mean, is that your first time? this a...

The Professor (15:08.664)
Has to be.

Todd Graves (15:15.048)
No.

Uh, well, you know, it was really, uh, I was out at the, uh, the AMEX, uh, tournament out in, in, in Palm Springs. And I just, I was out there just to watch one of my players and, I was asked to caddy for an amateur while I was out there. So I got to hop on the bag and get inside the ropes. And so I spent, spent the week caddying out there. And then the guy I was caddying for said, Hey, I'm a member of Cypress. Why don't you come play with me next week? So I came out here and play with him at Cypress. So it was,

It was a spiritual experience. I'm telling you right now, if you, if you ever have a chance to play Cyprus, which very few people do, but if you ever have a chance to do that, it will be an experience because it was for me for sure. And I played a lot of golf courses and it was, it was spectacular. Yeah.

Matt Considine (16:00.257)
Yeah. Yeah. Especially with the TV time it got last year. mean, now a lot more people know how Walker cup and how good it looks. can't imagine what a walk around that place. That's bucket Lister for me, for sure. Todd, the professor and I both played at the university of Akron and, the Mac conference, you know, Kent state was our rival.

Todd Graves (16:07.017)
Going to walk the cup, Yeah.

The Professor (16:09.016)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Graves (16:15.623)
Yeah, yeah, should be. It's great.

Matt Considine (16:27.789)
We played with a ton of Canadian teammates and rivals. And I was thinking about my first question for you today.

That's the first time I heard of Moe Norman was from those guys. and the amount of reverence these, you know, Canadian juniors, Canadian collegiate players had for Moe Norman was like beyond anything I had seen almost cultish in a way. And I, I had to know more about this guy and it was hard to get information. is like 2003 professor probably 02.

The Professor (17:07.691)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Considine (17:09.153)
you know, there wasn't much. And then I was getting ready for this conversation today, you know, 20 something years later, and I couldn't believe how much is out there. And you have a lot to do with that, right? You're, and I, so first I just want to commend you for just how that's changed in 20 years. But for those that might not know the story, I kind of wanted to start with Mo if that's okay. I wanted to, you know, ask you if,

you could tell us what made him such a legend.

Todd Graves (17:41.673)
Well, I was very similar to you. Um, when, when I was in college, you know, I heard him, Oh, Norman, I didn't really know exactly who he was. mean, he was, he was a mythical character, kind of like Ben Hogan down in, down in Fort Worth. Yeah. But, you know, did anybody really know, get spent time with them and whatnot. But when I, uh, when I graduated college, I went straight to the Asian tour and played over in Southeast Asia on the tour there. And I spent, you a year playing on Asia. And when I came back.

I played with some really great players and I realized I wasn't really, my ball striking wasn't near as good as I wanted it to be. And I said, well, I'm gonna start working with some coaches. Bobby, Billy Casper, son, Bobby Casper was a good friend of mine. And, I don't know if you know some of these names, Tom Crow, Jamie Crow, own Cobra golf. So these guys are all my buds. said, well, you got to start working with these instructors. So, and I tell people, I worked with some of the greatest instructors in the world at the time, you know, the Tom and Tom's Hank Haney, the Mac co-greaties.

David Leadbutter. So I was working with all these great instructors and I just wasn't making any progress. I was living in Dallas, Texas, spent working with Hank Haney and I'm sitting in my apartment in Dallas basically ready to quit. Just like, I can't figure this thing out. I've been three years working with all these instructors and it wasn't necessarily their fault. I don't want to blame instruction on this necessarily. It was a combination of

You know, how much time do you have to really work in your game? You got to be playing. And my sponsors were like, Todd, you're getting worse. You're not making any money. How can we keep sponsoring you? You know, it was just kind of this, I was bartending at night so I could make money so I could play golf during the day. It was just kind of this mess. a buddy shows up and he had been playing on the Canadian tour and he throws this video tape on my desk and it's, had hit balls with Mo Norman. He had, and his name was Matthew Lane. Matthew Lane, I played college golf with his college teammate.

Fabulous player respected him tremendously, respected his abilities and respected his his knowledge of the golf swing. And he goes, you got to see this guy. It's Moe Norman. He's a freak when it comes to hitting a golf ball. So I see this videotape and immediately I recognized what he's doing with the golf club because Hank Haney and I had talked a lot about swing plane and I'm like, holy shit, he's swinging on a single plane. Like he is on the same plane. He's addressing and impacting on the same plane. And so

The Professor (19:53.91)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Graves (19:57.563)
I ran out really the next day and started kind of mimicking what I was seeing on this tape. And I got better. I mean, I literally, the contact with the ball got immediately better for me. And so I just stuck with it. And for a year, I just practiced what I saw on that tape. I had never met Mo. I saw a video tape of him and this was 1994. And so at the end of that year, there was a lot of things going on at that time. My, my sponsors had built a massive driving range in Dallas, Texas. I was practicing out there and

It just so happened that a person showed up and said, yeah, I have this company called Natural Golf and we teach the single plane methodology. I don't know if you guys know about the company Natural Golf at all, but this company was around that was teaching a similar method to Moe, but it was different. But then they saw Moe and then they brought Moe into the mix. so Moe became a part of Natural Golf. And so I get invited to a clinic in Chicago at the end of 1994 where Moe was doing a clinic.

When I show up at the clinic, course Moe's there. I'm the guy that's holding the flip charts, showing the science behind the swing. I'm like Vanna White doing that thing. They're in the whole clinic. But at end of the clinic, when Moe was finished, and I'll tell you about the ball striking, what he did, but I walked up to him and I said, you're the best I've ever seen. hit a golf ball by far. And he said, I know I'm the best in world. I said, Moe, how did you learn to do that?

And he goes, hard work, you can't buy it. Hard work, you can't buy it. I said, well, and when Moa do a clinic, you know, mean, I'm sure he did many of these clinics. saw him do hundreds of these clinics, but before it was like there was just clubs scattered all over the range. was no organ. It was just stuff everywhere. So I said, Hey, can I hit your eight iron? He goes, sure, sure. So I grabbed his eight iron. I started hitting it. And now remember I've been practicing, like looking like him for a year. He looked at me and he goes, it's me without a belly. It's me without a belly. And a couple, a couple of the sponsors were there that were

The Professor (21:26.166)
Mm-hmm.

The Professor (21:46.158)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Graves (21:52.133)
At the event, they were like, what's going on here? And so now I picked up new sponsors and I started becoming involved with natural golf. became a part of that whole organization and I got really close to Mo because I was a 28 year old kid that was aspiring to be a player and Mo Mo Mo loved young guys that playing golf and he loved helping young younger guys aspire to play golf. And he also, liked golf. I mean, players and people that spoke the same language that he spoke. And so it was hard to get close to Mo unless she spoke his language.

The Professor (22:22.008)
Mm.

Todd Graves (22:22.01)
And I spoke his language. So we became friends for that day. And I spent the next 10 years just spending as much time with him as I could. I'd go to Canada and spend time with him. I'd go to Titusville, Florida. I'd spend time down there in Florida. We'd do clinics together. I played as much golf as I could with him. I just kind of dug in. And I kind of fell in love with the guy because, I mean, it's hard to get close to him. I initially just wanted him to show me what was going on with the swing. But then I spent so much time with him that it was just such a good,

person to as well and people never really know that part of him. that was how the whole thing got connected with me.

The Professor (22:57.24)
So Todd, I'd love to touch a little bit more on your golf journey through that time too. you're playing competitively through that, but also learning this whole swing philosophy. So where's your mind as a player of like, hey, I want to compete and just go grind it on tour, know, become the best versus, I do want to just think about the swing. And like you said, Mo was, I always interpreted Mo from an outsider as someone very giving because he wanted to give his knowledge to people. And it sounds like you picked on that enough too. So I had to.

kind of pull you in two different directions as just a golfer in terms of where to go.

Todd Graves (23:30.408)
It's a great question. It was very difficult. tell you, you know, um, so when I got, I, in 1995, I qualified, I got my Canadian tour card. by the way, it wasn't cause I hit it that good. was cause I putted really well. You know, I had, I have good qualifier and I putt it well because there's a couple of factors going on. this was, this is people, you know, people don't ask that question very often. It's a really good question. So I'm planning a Canadian tour with a, with a set of equipment from sponsors and the equipment.

The Professor (23:44.878)
You

Todd Graves (24:00.136)
But quite frankly, it was awful. mean, was the CG's were so high in the clubs. couldn't launch the ball high enough to stop it on greens. But here I am sponsored by these crappy golf clubs. I'm trying to now not only is my swing different, but the clubs are so bad. And I'm trying to compete on the tour. And I mean, I can't stop a ball from 180 on the green. It's just coming in too low. I'll tell you a quick story. So I'm so frustrated with the trajectories of my shots and this equipment I'm playing with. And it's not that I'm

The Professor (24:15.704)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Graves (24:29.923)
a bad ball striker, just the equipment is so inferior. I remember laying it up. I couldn't carry the ball. I couldn't hit it high enough to hit it 245 over these over some of the, you know, these creeks and stuff at one of courses. So I'm laying it up, hitting five irons in where guys are hitting wedges in. I mean, it was just this mess out there. And I walked, finally got so sick of it. I'm in Canada and I'm like, I gotta, I gotta fix this. So I go into a golf shop and I buy a set of Titleist DCI irons.

The Professor (24:58.187)
yeah.

Todd Graves (24:59.035)
And I take that JB weld, you know, stuff that makes it's like a, I don't know. It's like a material that looks like it's just make, and I put it in the back. So you couldn't see who the clubs were manufactured by. Cause I wasn't sponsored by tidalist and I, and I, but, but I expense the expense, the clubs back to natural golf were my sponsor. And I remember I were getting back to the, back to the Chicago, to the office where they were. And I get called in the office by the CEO and he's like, what in the hell I'm like,

The Professor (25:10.476)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Graves (25:27.397)
I can't get your clubs to go in the air. I can't get them in the air. So it was tough, but you know, the swing was there. The swing was good. I was in golf digest in 1995. They put me inside golf digest. The swing was there, but you gotta have equipment that works. I mean, you gotta have equipment that matches it. I I hit on my buddy's equipment so much better than my sponsor's equipment. I was just, I wish I could play with this stuff. But that was part of the process, you know, and that was a big process for me. My swing was different and I would be hitting shots on the Canadian tour.

The Professor (25:36.834)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Graves (25:56.36)
And guys, I would hear the gallery people and look, this guy swings like Mo and I'd hear just people running over to watch and stuff. And so there's a lot of distractions too. It's just, it's just hard. People don't understand that there's just so much going on, especially when you're unique and you, have that pedigree and you're out there and you're trying to play well and then you don't play well. I played, I played okay in some events, but it was just really a struggle to get, but I was playing well towards more towards the end of the tour than the beginning of it. Um, but anyway, that was just, it was, it was difficult. I'll tell you, it was difficult to do that. Then I did that, you know, I played tour golf.

from 95 on the Canadian tour all the way until 2001. 2001, by the way, was my best year. I played really well in 2001. Had six chances to win that year. Didn't win any of the events. But yeah, I kind of got in the groove when I kind of figured it out. But it took time. Definitely took time.

Matt Considine (26:39.937)
Todd, this is probably getting too much more into the weeds early than I wanted, because I want to get to technique and mechanics and things of that nature. you mentioned equipment. Does the single plane swing require, from your perspective,

different equipment, same equipment, different lie angles, different things than the more conventional thoughts.

Todd Graves (27:05.105)
Well, I would say this, that everybody needs to be fit for clubs. You brought that up a minute ago about the wedges. So you need to have clubs that fit. The thing that we do that's unique in our company is, and everything I try to do is very common sense, but think of it this way. We like to reverse engineer golf clubs as opposed to, which it really means is I'm going to fit you to a perfect single plane swing based on your body size and your equipment.

I don't care your skill level necessarily. mean, we're going to probably shaft you up based on your swing speeds. But what I care about is the geometry of your body fitting into a single plane. That's what I'm going to fit clubs to you for. As opposed to what the industry tends to do today, which is say I'm going to take your swing the way it is and fit clubs to that swing. Because if your swing is bad, they're going to fit clubs to a bad golf swing.

The Professor (27:38.7)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Graves (27:56.136)
We do the exact opposite. We fit clubs, we engineer them to a perfect swing. So you basically grow into the clubs, your swing develops into clubs that fit you, which makes common sense if you think about it. mean, I'm going to say, I'm going Hey, I want you to swing well. remember I was down at years ago. I think I was at the, I was at the Tideless Performance Center because I was a Tideless guy and Jim Flick was there. You remember Jim Flick used to teach at the Performance Center and Flick is down on the range.

Matt Considine (28:17.887)
yeah.

Todd Graves (28:21.765)
And he's, and he's, and what happens is guys would fly into titleists at the, at the performance center. and they would want to go through the whole fitting process, clubs, shoes, wedges, balls, everything. And they weren't hitting it well enough to get fitted. So they'd go send them over to Jim Flick and Jim Flick would try to work with them to get them hitting it somewhat semi decently then to then go get fit. And Jim was just full time right down there. Guys were paying a lot of money to hit it bad. And so we do kind of the opposite. We, we, we reverse engineer the clubs. So.

Generally speaking, the clubs will be slightly flatter, believe it or not, than what we see in the industry because of the way we set up the golf ball. I would say, I mean, so I don't want to say the clubs are necessarily different.

Matt Considine (28:55.981)
you for listening.

Matt Considine (29:02.679)
But maybe not based on your body type, maybe not based on.

Todd Graves (29:05.883)
Right. you're, you're, if you're six foot tall and, you know, your arm length, it could have a standard set or maybe slightly off right. It just depends on, your size. Yeah.

Matt Considine (29:13.857)
Thank you. that has been on my mind. So I got it off of this. Continue with the story. what did. In that time with Mo, what was the thing that he taught you that made your conviction and dedication? I mean, you dedicate your life to the single plane swing. Was there a moment you remember or just a. A piece of it that you you're.

you know, your practitioner with it, but then you just went to this next level.

Todd Graves (29:47.975)
I think the biggest thing was, know, if you look, great ball strikers, if you look at Mo being one of the greatest ball strikers, probably the greatest ball strikers that's ever lived. Now, if you never saw him, you'd probably say Hogan was because of his record. But, the first thing I recognized with Mo was the sound of the golf ball. I mean, I know it sounds weird, but the ball came off the club face just with, with a sound consistently. And what that means is he's making such pure contact with the ball. So, and then, and then the trajectory of flight, controlling the ball flight.

And dead straight, mean just dead straight, the ball flying, which means the spin rates of the golf ball are consistent every single time. There's a story where he went into the Tideless Performance Center in Massachusetts, I think it's in Massachusetts, and hit two golf shots. He hit a shot, and then he hit another shot, and they were testing the ball spin rates. when he left the, there's a lady named Karen Gray was in the room, and she said, Mo, hang on a second, and she left the room. She comes back in,

with a couple of the executives at Titleist and says, Mo, do you know that you're the only person to ever sit in this room and hit two shots in a row with exactly zero rotation on the golf ball, side spin? And he turned to them and says, you want to see me do it again? So that's the purity of strike that Mo put on a golf ball. Now, that fascinated me, number one. Number two is,

I mean, what was he doing with his body and his mechanics to do that? And I've, you know, I, that's what I spent my life dedicated to discovering. But what I realized really quickly was that he had no idea really what he was doing. Now I say that with the grain of salt because he could explain stuff to you. He knew what it felt like. He, he doing a lot about his golf swing and, know, take it back here, take it back here, you know, here, this is right. This is wrong, but biomechanically.

The Professor (31:16.78)
Mm-hmm.

The Professor (31:31.895)
Hmm.

Todd Graves (31:39.014)
There really isn't really a lot. I mean, of course he didn't, he didn't have the cameras we have today. He didn't have the way to measure things like we have today. I remember one time I had a video of the swing and I showed him, I was like, my look, I want you to show you something. I'm going to show you the plan of your golf swing. And he looked at me and he goes, now I know I'm so great. Now I know why, you know, I need to kind of walked off, you know, let's go get some more balls. So, so that's, that was kind of the thing is, is I just saw, you know, Mo taught me that the swing can be natural. Like there, there is a natural way to do this and

Matt Considine (31:56.308)
Ha

Todd Graves (32:08.421)
I don't look at Mo's swing as a method. lot of people say, that's a method. I look at it as a discovery. Like he discovered the most fundamental way to use the body, the most efficient way to use the body to hit the thing on the ground. That's it. that's why, you know, thank God he didn't have a lesson. Thank God he didn't be, the way his brain was wired, there's no way he would have ever done this. But he didn't, it wasn't influenced by somebody says, Mo lower your hands and you know, stand closer to the ball. you know, it didn't make sense to him. I mean,

Matt Considine (32:12.514)
Hmm.

Todd Graves (32:38.16)
Put your arms out where you're gonna impact. Make some room for the club. It's just, I see a very natural, I saw the very natural thing. So Mo would say things to me like one day I was practicing with him, hitting some balls and I hooked one, like I hooked one really bad. My club face would get shut. And he's like, you gotta straighten it out. He's actually really disappointed. He was like almost hurt. I I felt like I offended him or something. And so.

Matt Considine (33:03.753)
If you're going to be little mo, you can't be doing that, Todd. Yeah.

Todd Graves (33:06.502)
Yeah, you can't hit a curvature on the golf ball. I that's horrible. You know, I mean, who are you? I'm going to get away from you. So I was like, I got to work this out. I got to straighten this thing out. But there was a lot of things that he would show me. The way the body moved, he'd say, you got to work more up and down. He grabbed my shoulders. A lot of it was physical. Like he'd grab my hands and move me and stuff. So a lot of it wasn't like, OK, Todd, rotate your hand to left. It was like, grab my hand and put it there. So it was more of, he was very physical when he taught. Like he'd put me in certain positions and stuff.

But it was just, I just spent a lot of time just watching, observing, videotaping him and just trying to copy exactly what he was doing. And I got better and better and better when I did it. And I hit the ball, started getting that sound of the golf ball, which I mean, I love that sound.

The Professor (33:47.201)
Yeah, you bring up the sound Todd and that was that was the thing that drove me away from professional golf and that it's walking down and playing for the Akron Zips and I'm walking down the range and everybody has good swings. You've been out there. You've been on tour to like everybody has good swings and you watch the ball flies every all every ball flight looks pretty good. Now it's dime a dozen but there was this one sound as I was walking down the range. I'm like that's different like every ball coming off and it's just like

I don't hear it anywhere else. I've never heard it off my face, you know, and it's every time I get down there is Bill Haas and I'm like, oh, okay. Like I'm going to study more now. We're going to do the school thing a little bit more seriously because like I've never done that and I never, I don't think I ever will. But I got to tell you, I got to tell you Todd, one of the things I,

Todd Graves (34:21.562)
Yeah. Yeah.

Todd Graves (34:27.993)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (34:31.077)
My ball sounds like a metronome. There's like a bunch of different noises coming out. It's like, there's a kazoo in there all of a sudden. What the? Yeah. Yeah. They don't make music. They have that metronome. Anyways.

Todd Graves (34:34.315)
It never sounds.

The Professor (34:37.742)
We make music with our ball sound. Yeah. One of the things I've always loved about your work and your story too is the through line that's there and this consistent dedication. Like you said, it's a discovery, not just a method, like going through the discovery process. And I'm sure you'd say every year you're refining what you know about it and developing on top of it. And you've been around for a long time, so you've probably seen in the industry just...

Todd Graves (34:40.664)
Yes

The Professor (35:05.71)
you're obviously a very intelligent and studier of the game. see the evolutions of the swing and the different methods that are out there. I wonder if you can comment on, there's a huge difference there, right? The industry, if you watch from the eighties till now, you can kind of piece it into different eras of the way the swing was taught, right? I was taught in the like, keep your feet to the ground, like real smooth swing, hit it down the middle, right? Restrict the hip turn. You know, now we're back to like,

well, maybe you should let their hips turn as much as they want, right? Both directions. And so we have the, and you can go through every five years and it's almost like, here's the new swing philosophy or method. What do you just comment on that phenomenon versus, you know, your dedication or like, I'm going to discover this and I'm going to keep discovering new things about it and the differences that exist there.

Todd Graves (35:35.632)
Yeah.

Todd Graves (35:40.294)
Yeah.

Todd Graves (35:49.025)
Yeah. Well, it was funny the other day I was, I'm not a PGA member, but I have a bunch of people on my team that are PGA members. And I said, can somebody go grab me the PGA teaching manual? I want to take a look at it. So I get this book and I'm like, okay, is this the most recent version of this book? Like it was copyright 1990, I think, or it was the last printed in 1990. So no, buddy, my one of the guy, my team member goes, no, no, no. He goes, I got, I got a newer version. I go, well, bring that tomorrow to the office. Let me see it. So he brings a hard cover.

Open it up. It's the same thing. This has a hard cover on it. You know, they haven't changed. The PGA has not changed their manual since 1990. Okay. And think about the evolution of technology that's going on. Now they changed the cover of the book and they made it prettier, but the inside of it, all the information is still the same. So that's one thing that's going on in the industry is like, they're not, they're not updating their knowledge for, for, look, there's guys like Greg Rose. There's guys like Rob Neil with golf biodynamics.

There's rock stars in this industry that understand the biomechanics of body motion and the swing that could really contribute a lot to what's right, what's wrong, what's easier, what's not easier. So that's the first thing. And that's what I dug into a lot is just what's the biomechanics of the swing. I went as far as working with Tom House who teaches, he's the throwing doctor from USC, understanding the biomechanics of rotational body movement. there's a lot of things, there's a lot of science behind this stuff too that needs to be looked at and the PJ has got to catch up to this stuff.

The Professor (36:47.512)
Mm-hmm.

The Professor (37:06.573)
Right.

Todd Graves (37:15.514)
That's one thing that I believe needs to happen. Number two is what I believe that it's just going on in golf and this reason Moe Norman looks like an anomaly when he's actually in my measurements and my perspective obviously is biomechanically the purest way to hit a golf ball is that you have one main flaw that's being taught in golf. I I call it a flaw because it's making it complicated, right? It's over-complicating it. And that flaw is hanging the arms straight down when you set up.

The Professor (37:43.267)
Mm.

Todd Graves (37:44.154)
There is no biomechanical reason that's the absolute best way to strike an object that's at an angle in front of your body. So your arms are hanging down here and when you swing your arms are going to move around. Your arms are going to move away from your body when you swing because the science of moving mass around your body is going to pull away from your body. So your arms are pulling away, the club's pulling away and you're close to the golf ball. So now you got some choices. You got to make room. So what are you going to do? You got to jump. You got to, you got to spin.

The Professor (38:01.838)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Graves (38:13.254)
You gotta do something to get the arms to have space to hit the golf put on there. So we come over the top and we shank it and we do all these things because we have to create this skill. I saw an instructor the other day. saw it. mean, you know how when you're on your feed in Facebook, my wife says I'm addicted to my phone, but you know how when you're on your feed and you're looking through it and all of sudden you watch one video and then all the videos start popping up about the same subject. yeah, well, so I'm watching this.

The Professor (38:36.119)
yeah.

Todd Graves (38:39.493)
And this guy is this this instructor. looks like a really good instructor has, you he's in front of some people. He goes, there's a skill you have to learn in the golf swing that nobody's teaching. And he sets up and he jumps backwards, like not not up. He jumps back like backwards. He's got to learn to jump backwards. And I'm like, he's not wrong. Like he's literally not wrong in the conventional golf rule. That is a skill you must learn to hit a golf. You got to learn that your body has to go backwards to hit that ball because you got to make room. So what's interesting is that I'm like,

He's actually teaching the right thing for the problem that's been created at the beginning of the swing motion, right? Mo eliminated that problem. The single plane swing eliminates the problem. says, well, we say, well, hey, we need some more room. We're going to put the arms in line with the golf club. We're going to set up where we're going to impact. We don't need to jump backwards. Matter of fact, we go down. Our pelvis, the sacrum, goes down a couple inches as we strike the golf ball. And that saves the back as well. No more compression, no more shear on the lower spine.

The Professor (39:15.714)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Graves (39:39.205)
My thing is, like, until you understand biomechanics, until you really know how the body works, and until you understand these things, you're gonna still have this problem as long as you're hanging the arm straight down. And as long as you have the argument, and this is the argument that I get in my universe, is, well, if Mo was so great, why didn't he win any major championships? Well, I don't think major championships should be the litmus test to whether a golf swing is the best way to hit a golf ball, right? I don't think that should be it. You know, those guys practice every day.

I want to teach a golf swing that helps everybody every day, right? Not the average guy, the zillions of golfers that are playing that aren't ever going to play professionally. I want to help that group. And that's who I spend my time with, just helping the average golfer. But Mo figured it out. And then I guess the third thing I would say on this subject is your body biomechanically has naturally built in range of motion limitations. So Bryce and Deschambault talks a lot about this. your wrist can only rotate so far, your shoulder can only go so far.

The Professor (40:29.902)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Graves (40:34.341)
And if you can position your body in particular ways, you can actually use your body's design to get to impact consistently. And that's exactly what Moe figured out. That's why I it's a discovery. He discovered how to position the body. Why did put his hand the way he did it? Why did he tilt the way he did? Why did he put his right hand more under the club, which isn't really under the club. It's just the tilt looks like it's under the club. So why did he do all these things? Well, he intuitively figured out that the body, if I put it in a certain way, squares the club face every single time. So there's all those factors, I think, that golf

It'll continue to have, we'll continue to have a problem in golf as long as we keep teaching, hang the arms straight down. And I've even seen instructors say you can't stand too close to the golf ball. And I'm like, good Lord, you talk about spine issues, right? But I mean, I just, that's what I see in the industry. And I see, I've, I've seen that. and it'll continue until, people understand that. But the other thing too is I go, I walked a tour event last week, right. two weeks ago and I see guys that are, that have their hands a little higher.

their things are lining up better. so not everybody's like, you know, not everybody's hanging straight down like that. So there's variations out there and there's closer people are closer and people that aren't as close. Yeah.

Matt Considine (41:44.781)
Todd, I want to personalize it for a quick second. this probably would take us more into the principles of the single plane swing and why it works and how you get, as you said, the average golfer to benefit from these principles. Unfortunately, was post most of my competitive career. I started to make strides and a big part of it was

I'll use Steve Stricker as kind of the model. I, you know, kind of grew up in a little past Kevin. He's an old man. I'm a young buck, but I grew up a little bit past him and probably more in the lead better phase and a lot of hinge. You know, I remember growing up kind of, don't know why I love Sergio swing, but I had a lot of lag and a lot of moving parts, but the parts that probably should have been moving weren't anyways, when someone or something kind of

I think it started with honestly the wedge game and Stricker being just a dominant wedge player at the time. And I'm a little bit taller than average so that body type worked. But I always felt like it was kind of a half-assed single plane. Like you wouldn't say he's all the way single plane obviously. And I always kind of dabbled in it and I found gains dabbling in it but I'm certainly not a single plane swinger. And so I guess my question.

Todd Graves (43:00.325)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Matt Considine (43:12.813)
I wanna know is, I'll ask it this way, it, cause I asked you about conviction to it, but have you ever had doubts with it? Have there ever been times where your conviction was questioned in the single plane swing and that there's components of the single plane swing, but it's not all the way there? Because I think there's a lot of, the reason I'm asking this question, I think there's a lot of people in my camp, a lot of people that have seen benefits to their game by taking elements of it, getting their hands higher, for example, was it?

It's a significant thing for me. But they can't get themselves all the way there, whether it be non-conventional or their own discomfort or the coaches that are around them, majority preach and other things. So have you ever had doubts with the full thing or not?

Todd Graves (44:02.137)
I don't think you, I don't think you can be in, in, in the world and try to do what I'm doing without having some doubts. I, I had a, I have a really, really important customer client of mine. was actually now really good friend of mine who I've spent a lot of time with. And he finally turns to me one day and he goes, Todd, you're really good. I really like what you teach in swing plane. So let's just stick to swing plane. I'm like, so he wanted to keep lowering his hands because it was more that.

when he would be around people that he'd play with, they'd be like, your hands are too high. It was the peer pressure he was getting from looking different. So he goes, I don't want to look different, but I still want to learn what you're teaching me. So there's those doubts that get in the mix, right? And I totally get that. I'm like, fine. I go, look, you do what you want. I'll do my best to get you playing in the club and trying to figure this out. And he just back problems, all these issues. I'm like, I got to get you further in the wall.

We're in this battle, right? We're in this battle. He wants to work with me as a coach, but he doesn't want to put his hands where I want him to put them, right? And so it's a battle, right? And I, and I know I'm like, I'm like in the back of my brain, I'm like, he'll, he'll get, he'll get to the point. So, this was funny because I played with him at Cyprus, right? This was recent. I played with him at Cyprus and I didn't miss it. I missed one fairway on the second hole. I hit every, every ball dead straight down the middle. And I'm not.

I don't like bragging to myself. I don't like making excuses. I play golf. I just play golf. I never play golf anymore. That's the second round of golf I've played in a year. I've been to Pebble a hundred times. I've played two rounds of golf here. That tells you how much I'm coaching and teaching. I shoot one over on the front and I shoot four under on the back. I played pretty well. That's pretty good for my first run at Cyprus and not having played much golf. It's the first time he's seen me play.

And he calls me at four in the morning. He wakes me up at four in the morning. That's how crazy this game is. And he says, I'm all in because I got to go all in on this. I'm like, yeah, because that's the way I felt with Mo. It was so convincing when I saw Mo hit a golf ball. just like, that's got to be the best way to do it. So yeah, there's doubt that goes in because you get peer pressure, you get people putting pressure on you. Did I ever doubt myself doing it? No, I just went all in. said, I had enough experience with Mo to know I doubt.

The Professor (45:59.887)
You

Todd Graves (46:25.124)
I have doubts with my coaching influence more than anything. Like how many people can I, are really going to go all in with me to do this? Because I know if they do, I can make them better, but if they, they waiver and they change things and they keep going back to the old way, we get into this mix. And so that's, that's where it comes with me as a coach. I have a lot of doubts. Can I ever really get people to really buy in a hundred percent of this? Because it really, really does take a commitment and you can't really go half, you can go halfway to the sense of like, I think anytime you get further from the ball and create some space, it's going to help you.

but that's not going to get you all the way there. You got it. You know, you to your hand position correct. So yeah, I mean, I think there's always that part of element of teaching and coaching that, that, that, but, I did. The last round I played with Mo it was three months before he died. He rarely played 18 holes with me. We'd play nine holes and he'd say, you know, good enough, whatever. Well, we played, he, we play nine holes is that Coptown woods in Canada. We play nine holes. He wants to play nine more. We stopped to have little, a little lunch before the second nine. And I said to him, I said, Mo.

My goal in life is to bring your golf swing to the world. I'm going to teach the entire world your golf swing. looked at me and goes, what can one man do? What can one guy do? So I said, well, we'll figure that out. I said, I'll figure that out. know, thank God for the internet. Right. So, so yeah, so that, so yeah, I think there's always that element of, of doubt, but you know, I'm on a mission, really. I'm on a mission to show people there there's there's an alternative way to play golf. It's a better way in my, in my opinion. Well, everybody adopted. No.

But hopefully I'll be able to save some people's games, help some people's backs, help them enjoy the game. That's the goal. That's the goal for all of us. It's not about being a tour player. It's about having a blast playing the game and going out there and hitting good shots and hitting fairways, hitting greens. know, that's the thing. My customers don't come to me go, I want to play on tour. They come to me and say, I want to keep playing the game. You know, I want to play till I can't play anymore. So.

The Professor (47:59.407)
Okay.

Matt Considine (48:14.603)
You know, I'm going to call in the professor here because I know, I don't think we've talked about Chucky fairways yet, but, one of my favorite people to play the game with is Kevin's dad. he's got, we call it Chucky's bag of magic tricks. So he's got a lot of braces and solves and, and, maybe some meds in there, but he always shows up to the golf course with a golf bag of his bag of magic tricks. So he's a guy that's had a lot of injuries. He's, I think he's, he's tried different things, but

Todd Graves (48:34.99)
Yes.

Matt Considine (48:43.191)
But Chuckie Fairways is called Chuckie Fairways for a reason. And he's a practitioner of Graves golf. And so Kevin, I wanna know, like, is Chuckie all the way in? Cause I could see him wavering on at times and going back to, you know, the thought he had from 1983. Like, does he stick with it, the single plane?

The Professor (49:01.294)
I mean, Chuck, he's always moving around, but he's stuck with the single plane pretty predominantly. And that does lead to a question I have for you, Todd. One, I really want to say I appreciate how illuminating the perspective is on, you know, when you're teaching the everyday golfer, I think way, I've always had a personal belief, way too many people look to the Scottie Shufflers that have rolled, oh, we should just see what they're doing and then try to take that to the everyday golfer. It's like, got to play once every Saturday and hits one, you know, range balls once a week. And you want, like, you're going to take what the

best in the world is doing and say, just do that. And like, that's going to make you better. think that's a completely, you know, it's an asinine approach. So I appreciate you bringing that to the audience and talking about it. In terms of I want to ask, we have a lot of coaches that listen to show and then I'll spin this to my dad's question. First touching on you, started to touch on getting buy in from the people you work with. What are the things you've learned about getting buy in? You know, you're so committed to the single plane swing. It's not just, let me look at they're doing. I'll just give them something they're happy to hear.

No, you really want them to commit what you know will make them better. What are some of what's maybe the one key thing you've learned to help get by and other than playing around with you at Cypress because not all of us are going to have that opportunity.

Todd Graves (50:10.914)
Yeah. I rarely try to do too much convincing. The most convincing thing is just results, right? Is getting results. And when people see it, see the results of what it can do. And I, I like to do a lot of demonstrations. like to present the golf swing and demonstrate the common sense of it, because I don't even get into the science much of it. I just say, look, doesn't this make sense? And then I demonstrate and that's kind of what Mo what Mo would do for me. mean, what Mo would do for a crowd is he would say,

The Professor (50:19.416)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Graves (50:38.465)
Look how simple, it's laughable how easy the game is. And you'd get up there and just rip shots and you'd see a swing and say, well, there's got to be something here because the swing looks different, but he's also producing these amazing results. There's got to be something there. So I try to let results kind of do the talking on the convincing part because you can talk all day long and people always come back with, well, why doesn't so-and-so do it this way? Or why doesn't you?

And what's funny too is I just finished my book called the Intelligent Golf Swing. actually used AI. I dove in and I taught AI the single plane swing and built a conversation with AI. And the beautiful thing about that book was that it was totally objective. wasn't saying, if Todd, if your swing is so great, why doesn't Tiger Woods do it? It was basically just asking questions about the methodology and let me lay out the principles of the swing. And it's just very objective. people aren't that objective. People are very subjective about

The Professor (51:22.062)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Graves (51:33.933)
who they're gonna compare it against. I think what happens to me in my world is people get to a point of frustration where they're like, nothing's working. I give up, this is my last chance. And I used to get that all the time in my golf camps. So by the time they came to my camp, they had given up, I'll do whatever it takes to get better. And that's actually a good place to be for me, because I'm like, we're going all in, baby, because this is your last chance.

The Professor (52:01.337)
That's right.

Todd Graves (52:02.67)
So a lot of times I don't get to see the people that are kind of like, well, I'll give this a shot. Let me try it. And I try to stay away from that, Dennis, with you. I mean, I try to stay away from the try it stuff because it's so easy to go back to, well, I was hitting it like this before. And this seems a lot harder because it's different and all that stuff. So I try to get the buy in before I even coach somebody. And I have to be totally honest. You know how I usually do that? With money.

The Professor (52:25.838)
Mm-hmm.

The Professor (52:30.338)
How's that? Yeah.

Matt Considine (52:31.403)
Ha ha ha.

Todd Graves (52:31.651)
You charge them enough to where they're like, I got to commit because if you charge them 25 bucks, right? I I hate to say it that way, but I mean, that's exactly what you got to do. You got to get them to somehow reach a level of commitment that's painful if they don't succeed, right? And so, and I've learned that as a business guy. What's that?

The Professor (52:34.228)
Uh-huh. That's... They can just leave, yeah.

Matt Considine (52:37.111)
So true.

Matt Considine (52:48.353)
You know, I had that example this morning. Well, I'm the worst at like returns, but you know, the businesses that they send you the new, I got some pants that didn't fit. They send you the pants and I'm so bad at going to UPS and returning. But this company is like sending me a notice, we're going to charge you if we don't get this back in the next seven days. So what did my house do before this call? I went straight to the UPS store. like, I don't want to pay for pants that don't fit.

Todd Graves (53:12.291)
Exactly.

Matt Considine (53:15.149)
So I hear you exactly, the motivation's hard to find or the stick with it-ness is hard to find.

The Professor (53:21.464)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Graves (53:22.891)
Yeah. Yeah. It generally, you know, money is a big motivator. Cause if you get to the point where people are willing to really invest in themselves, that's great. The other thing too, is just the frustration level. People get to a frustration level where they're just like, this is my, I'm going to do this because they see the common sense side of it. It just becomes common sense and then results. got to, you got to produce results. mean, I'm definitely the other side to, to results is results take

some time. You got to change somebody. You got to take time. So you got to have the commitment level to have enough time with somebody. I do not give one golf lesson to people. I just don't do it. You want one lesson? I'm not your guy. I need time to work through the process with you. I have a formula I used. I teach with. The formula is positions before sequence before speed. I don't get into, I don't let you accelerate the golf club until you can hit the positions and put them into sequence. I just don't do it. I teach the way you would learn to dance.

Or play the piano. I would never have you go, hey, here's a piano, play me a song. and by the way, here's the music, go play me a song. You would know. You would have to teach somebody in a process, right? And I need time to teach people that process, and then it gets easier and easier, and the swing develops from there. But, yeah, so anyway.

Matt Considine (54:31.617)
You know, I, man, I just want to say that again, was it positions before sequence before speed, which is very antithetical, I think, to the modern approach, especially for junior golfers, because it just seems like speed, speed, speed, and then piecing together after that. I've enjoyed that because I feel like there's a lot of authentic-esque swings out there, but this is where I find the single playing kind of does lose a lot of practitioners is that

because speed is, and let's face it, like speed is driven by ego, it's driven by wanting to be farther than the guy in the Saturday morning game, but does that undercut the whole thing? Because like, I see the partial practitioners of the single plane swing who I see them, why are they partial sometimes? I think it is the speed. They're starting with speed and then they're kind of working in reverse in many ways. Is that like,

Todd Graves (55:28.141)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Matt Considine (55:30.775)
Do you see any limitations on speed from the single plane swing versus the modern swing?

Todd Graves (55:36.771)
I don't. I, I, a matter of fact, um, there's a kid named Roberto, LeBrija plays his high coach. He's on the Asian tour now. He got his agent tour card this year. I haven't talked to him the last few months, but I worked with for about two years. And just a quick story about Roberto, fantastic human being, fantastic player. I played at Oregon. Then he went down to a team in Florida, was playing with a smaller college in Florida. When he transferred his dad calls me, uh, I think three, three or four years ago and says, um,

please help my son. And so, and just this kid had high swing speeds to begin with. But he comes to me and he says, and he hits his driver on my driving range in Orlando. And we never saw where the ball went because it went so far and so far offline. like, did you see where that went? I mean, it came off so fast. So Roberto, he says to me, he says, he goes, I can't find the golf ball when I hit it. I said, okay, that's fine. I said, let's work on this.

So two years later, he qualifies for the Latin American tour and he's playing and he's any and here's the thing. His swing speed slowed down about four miles an hour. So a little bit slower, but he's hitting it farther. And the reason he's hitting it farther with slower swing speed is because of what we call efficiency. He's hitting the right spin rates. So the goal is two things. It's not just speed, it's efficiency as well. So we got to increase both things. I swing the club about 104, 105, which is about senior tour average and I'm a senior.

The Professor (56:49.048)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Graves (57:05.986)
But I'm super efficient, so I can hit it 300 yards with that speed. if I don't have put spin rates correctly on the ball and I don't have proper approach angles of the club, I'll hit it 250, right? Because I'm not efficient. So we have to work on both sides of it. So single plane swing allows for maximum efficiency, which get the most out of your swing. When Mo passed away, Wally Uline, the ex-CEO of Titleist,

was one of his pallbearers, carried Mo's casket. I don't know if you knew that. Well, Wally and I are having breakfast together. And he turns to me he said, Todd, you know what was so great about Mo, his ball striker, is how efficient his golf swing was. I go, he has more efficiency in his ball striking than anybody that's ever played the game. Well, efficiency is what we want because, look, if you had to drive 320, and then the next one goes 390 into the trees, and the next one goes 340,

That doesn't really help you that much because you can't play a golf course not knowing how far the ball goes. So we don't know how far your clubs go. How far does your five iron go? How far does your six iron go? How far does your seven iron go? That lets you go take your game to the course and efficiently play a round of golf. And so there's a lot of efficiency factors that people ignore when it comes to speed. So that's one thing. Biomechanically, should the single plane swing produce less speed? Absolutely not. There's no biomechanical reason the single plane swing shouldn't produce as much body acceleration.

The Professor (58:07.854)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Graves (58:31.872)
in more efficient way than any swing that's out there. People perceive it that way. But I do agree with you that the game has really turned to power is very important, right? Especially for the tour players on the tour. There's no doubt about it. When I caddied out there in the Amex and I watched those guys play, they all hit it plenty far, very far. And their proximity to the green, they're hitting short irons into every green. The longest shot I saw hit into green was probably an eight iron, right?

The Professor (58:57.954)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Graves (58:59.21)
If I gave you guys an eight iron to a wedge, you're going to play great golf. I don't care what skill level that you are, you're going to play pretty decent golf, right? But the average amateur out here that plays golf is hitting hybrids into the greens or hitting, they're hitting three woods into greens. And the number one stat to lower your scores is greens regulation. You got to hit more greens regulation. So, so yeah, so I mean, I don't know if that answered your question completely, but there's nothing biomechanically that the single plane swing should limit speed. The goal is to become more efficient, hit more greens, hit more fairways, hit more greens.

That's really the goal for the average golfer. And that's what I think the single point swing is such a huge benefit.

The Professor (59:33.903)
Yeah, that's beautiful. Again, teasing apart the difference between the amateur golfer from the pro or the kid chasing the college game. Like very different populations to work with. All I got to ask my dad's question. You know, as Matt alluded to, he's been through 27 surgeries, know, body pain, whatever, but he's been a one-playing guy now for a while. So I guess it's blessed with a question maybe from him, but him trying to get his other guys to listen.

Todd Graves (59:43.148)
Yeah.

The Professor (59:59.065)
You know, for someone that's a senior like that, and I know you think about pain a lot, and you want people to be lifelong golfers, what is the best thing, the best first thing that senior golfer can do that's been through a lot of surgeries, maybe a back surgery, maybe a shoulder reversal, a knee replacement? You know, what would be your one tip to get them started on that path where, they can play golf for a lifetime in the way they want to play it?

Todd Graves (01:00:23.437)
So the way the single plane swing works and the reason, you know, the Texas back Institute, Cedar Sinai, the back Institute there have always recommended the single plane swing. And the reason they recommend it is because of the address position. When you, you set up on a single plane and you create the proper spacing from the golf ball, you, you put the spine in a position to where it can now go into a flex lead leg through impact. Now that's not necessarily unique. mean, Ben Hogan's lead knee was flexed at impact.

Those guys back in the day, mean, by the way, Ben Hogan was very close to single plane, if you actually look at what's going on with the swing. so what we have to do to help the back and to save the back and to help the body when we're swinging is eliminate stress on the spine. Well, there's two things happening to the lower back when you swing in golf club. Obviously, all swings have rotation. Single plane swing has rotation and a conventional golf swing has rotation. But what happens in a conventional golf swing

If you measure the sacrum, sacrum is right where the spine and the pelvis meet. There's the sacrum, the sacrum right there in your lower back. When a conventional golfer swings and in the modern swing, when he's coming down at the impact, the sacrum gets pushed upward because he's close to the golf ball. leg is straightening as he's rotating. So the sacrum is getting pushed up. Well, the upper body is moving down because it's going to strike the golf ball. So you have one part of the body moving down.

and another part moving up and that creates what they call compression. So there's compression between the lower body and upper body right at the sacrum, lower back. Well, that's not all that's happening because now you're turning. So now you got both the compression and the sheer. So now you got stress being put in that lower part of the back because of the push up and the rotation. Well, all golf swings have rotations so you're not gonna limit the rotation. We gotta eliminate the compression.

Well, the way we do that is because we have the space from the ball at address. So mastering the address position, getting that perfect proper tilt, proper forward bend. Now when I go to come down impact, I go into a slightly Bentley knee stable, but bent which lowers the sacrum. So now it's, it's equally moving down as much as the upper body. So now the compression is gone. So now I, if I remove the compression or remove the shear or remove the stress. So that's what's happening. The single plane swings. That's the first thing I would do is teach them to get the proper address position.

Todd Graves (01:02:41.493)
and then working that lead knee being stable and flexed. And that would save their back right off the bat.

The Professor (01:02:48.27)
I know what I'm working on when I go to the range today before getting a nine hole walk in this.

Matt Considine (01:02:49.677)
Ha!

Todd Graves (01:02:50.881)
Stable-ly-nay. Stable-ly-nay, yep.

Matt Considine (01:02:53.611)
You know, you got a, you got a little advantage on Chucky right now, Kevin. I don't know. He might, you get 34 years or whatever it is between the two. You could get started earlier.

Todd Graves (01:03:02.443)
Well, it's interesting because I teach the trail foot to stay on the ground through impact, right? And actually through release and finish. But you don't want to do that if you're a conventional golfer. Now Rory does it. Ruch Rory, his trail foot is rotated down on impact. So that's called internal rotation of the trail side. And you want that. one thing that's in the golf swing that, and I learned this too, by the way, like you mentioned before, I've evolved my instruction and learned a lot just from the amount of time I spent studying it and looking at it.

The Professor (01:03:19.138)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Graves (01:03:32.085)
But the golf thing is always taught as a motion, right? Swing the golf club, know, swing. But there's, in order to accelerate the body, which is why acceleration comes third in my process, is because you have to be able to stabilize the body to accelerate it. So, so I learned this from Tom House. So, so Tom House is, if you ever watched the movie Million Dollar Arm, Tom House is portrayed by Bill Paxton in the movie, he's the throwing doctor. But Tom House teaches the, the, the pitchers that he used to pitch on in the, in in the major leagues.

taught Nolan Ryan, but he's a pitching coach. And I meet him at a conference in Oklahoma City. He was teaching a bunch of athletes throwing motion. And he throws up a biomechanical sequence of a throwing sequence. And right next to it is Nolan Ryan throwing a ball. And right next to it is Tiger Woods golf swing. And they're exactly the same sequence. So the two biomechanical sequences of throwing rotational athletes, throwing or swinging golf club are exactly the same. So I'm like, I gotta meet this guy. So I ended up becoming friends with Tom.

I fly down to USC and I'm gonna spend, I got 30 minutes with Tom for the day. He's busy, but I got a bunch of questions to ask, but I'm gonna wait for him and I get there early. So I'm watching the athletes train on the diamond and they're running backwards. They're all running backwards around the basis in reverse. That's interesting why they're running in reverse. They're running backwards, backwards, not forward on the basis, backwards. And then they're doing all these weird stretches and stuff and I'm watching this.

So I finally get time with him and I said, Tom, what was I seeing out there? What was that? goes, goes, Todd, listen. He goes, if your decelerators, the way you slow the body down, can't slow the body down, you can't use your accelerator. So he goes, Todd, if you have a Ferrari and it goes 200 miles an hour, and I take the brakes off of it, I said, good luck, you're not gonna drive that car 200 miles an hour, right? So that's the thing is that the golf swing needs to be taught from both an acceleration and deceleration standpoint.

The Professor (01:05:09.998)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Graves (01:05:27.605)
How is it stabilizing? And that's really not taught that much in golf. It's like swing, swing, swing. Good players learn to figure it out. They learn to stabilize, whether it's straight in the leg or whatever. So what I always teach people is positions. You put your body in positions that allow it to stabilize. So position first. Then you can start sequencing around those stable points. And then you can accelerate it. That's why I teach that sequence. Because the positions create, for example, you rotate your lead foot slightly out. You can stabilize the knee. If your lead foot is straight, which I really don't.

The Professor (01:05:54.283)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Graves (01:05:56.993)
would never teach, which a lot of guys do, the lead foot being straight, the leg rolls, the leg will roll. And so now it's not as stable. Now you've got to straighten it. So you position your body in certain ways to stabilize this better. And so that's what I teach. I'm teaching the position of the body to stabilize.

Matt Considine (01:06:13.175)
You know, I know we already commented on the pitfall of everyone watching Scottie Scheffler that Sunday, then they go into their golf week and they're trying to do what Scottie does, right? And the average golfer should shift focus towards more of their enjoyment and their own path to improvement. But I got to ask about Bryson while you're on time. The big YouTube golfer is a very popular man and

I have had more of my call them casual golf fans who are getting more into golf. Ask me about the single plane swing because of Bryson, right? They have, I think on his YouTube channel, he talks a bit about Mo, but I know you've spent a lot of time analyzing Bryson in detail. Where is he spot on where you or Mo might be and where would you or Mo be different?

in what Bryson is currently doing.

Todd Graves (01:07:15.361)
Yeah, I'm a huge fan of Bryson. Matter of fact, the head pro at Cypress is really good friends with Bryson. so I got some time to spend with Casey, the head pro at Cypress, and we're talking about Bryson and stuff. I met Bryson when he was in college. I haven't talked to him since. I really loved what he was doing with his swing plane in college and all the stuff I saw going on. That's kind how I got introduced to him was the single plane swing. He coaches Mike Shy.

always puts you on that one plane kind of loop thing that you swing on. if I said, I said there's a lot of great similarities the way Bryson sets up to a golf ball. Obviously Bryson's a very smart guy. He understands the science of body mechanics, the range of motion. He talks about range of motion limits of the body, which then accentuates your ability to use the body in its natural way. So all that stuff I fully agree with. And I think Bryson's a genius when it comes to it. And he's a smart guy. He thinks through this stuff and he thinks about it.

I don't like the one plane loop that you swing on because that's not the natural motion of how the body is in a different position in the back swing than it is the downswing rotationally. so for example, I could stand up out of my chair here, but when you're half way in your back swing, your body is at about a 60 degree pelvis, torso rotation. In the downswing, it's about 15. So your arm position, if you match your arm position to your body rotation, it's not going to be on the same. Your arms will not be on the same plane.

The Professor (01:08:22.254)
Hmm.

Todd Graves (01:08:41.289)
as your body rotation. So if you want to match your arms to your body rotation, you can't do it on a single loop like that. Now, that doesn't mean that Bryson learned to swing up and down in that loop, and I think it's great. That's a manipulation in my book that you're forcing the club outside your body rotation. But the backswing doesn't hit a golf ball. The downswing hits a golf ball, right? So you can figure out the backswing, and then if you get down the downswing, you can be a great ball striker. And Bryson obviously does that on a single plane.

The Professor (01:08:46.862)
Mm-hmm.

The Professor (01:09:01.698)
Query Quote.

Todd Graves (01:09:11.041)
So I love that part of it. what's funny though is as Bryson's added acceleration to his swing to add this speed element to it in the last four years or whatever, he doesn't take it back on that loop anymore. It goes back to the inside a little bit. So I see it more naturally developing. So I watch this stuff. I pay attention to it. I love what he's doing. I love it. In single length clubs, I get questions about a lot when.

When Bryson signed with Cobra, I helped Cobra design Bryson's first set of irons. was the first guy to hit Bryson's irons. I got one day to hit his irons, whether I thought about them. And I thought, it was so funny. like, I don't really like single-length irons because it limits my gapping in my bag. I lose these gaps. But if you have super high swing speeds, I think they're great because then you don't have the gapping problem. again,

Matt Considine (01:09:57.389)
Hmm.

The Professor (01:09:57.89)
Mm-hmm. That's right.

Todd Graves (01:10:00.457)
I have my opinions about this stuff. People get frustrated when I'm like, don't think you should, you your swing speed's 85 miles an hour. I don't think you should swing single-legged irons. I think you should have some length in there to give you some distance. like, well, they work good for me, yeah, but you have this massive gap between your longest iron, which is your five iron, and your three wood. You have this 40-yard gap, and you gotta fit something in there. So anyway, but I I love Bryson. think he's great for the game. I think he's...

The Professor (01:10:07.7)
I know.

The Professor (01:10:12.59)
.

Matt Considine (01:10:16.948)
interested.

Todd Graves (01:10:26.889)
I like his YouTube stuff. think he's creative. So I have a big appreciation for him. And he's a single playing guy, so he helps a lot. Every time Bryson plays well, my company does well. So it's great.

Matt Considine (01:10:35.469)
Yeah, his discovery too. I think I see that clear acknowledgement of you and him. And I think people that pull you into the, instead of telling you that they have every single answer, people that pull you into their discovery of the answer, I think that's just so much more interesting. And so he, yeah, that's something I really appreciate about his channel and what he's doing. It's like discovery, it really is. And it's fascinating.

Todd Graves (01:10:51.614)
Yeah. Yeah.

Todd Graves (01:11:03.147)
Yeah. Yeah. And he's a golf scientist, right? I mean, he's always, he's always tinkering and looking for the next thing. And I love that about it. mean, think about the irons, the AI irons he's creating with the, with the faces curved. mean, who would have thought of that? Right. I mean, but I'm like, I'm ready to try them. You know, send me a set. I'm ready to try those things. I got to give them a shot. So yeah.

Matt Considine (01:11:21.517)
I heard there's a couple other two or players now doing their own curvature on the club faith based on their angles. Professor, any other questions for Todd? He's been generous with a little more time here today than we initially asked. Anything as we're wrapping up?

Todd Graves (01:11:26.537)
Yeah.

The Professor (01:11:36.046)
I got Chuckie Fairway's question in there, so that's my ribbon on it.

Matt Considine (01:11:38.455)
Did you? Okay. I want to make sure I don't want to get yelled at by Chucky. the, know, I, said something and I, and I jotted it down earlier on that Mo once said to you, I never thought I'd see a man dedicate his life to swinging like me, but what can one man do? well, just a reflective question here, Todd, to take us out years later, you spreading both, both Mo's word and, and the single plane swing.

we answer his question. What can one man do? What have you been able to achieve?

Todd Graves (01:12:12.883)
Well, you know, I live the dream in a lot of ways. get to not only be involved with the game of golf, which I love as much as Mo did, I get to take a legacy forward. think Mo is a legacy that think people should know and understand. Not only just from how great a ball striker he was, but just because he was this unique character and human being. If he was alive today, he would be revered and he'd have a fan club that would be huge. I'm actually working on a documentary film right now.

about Mo with a pretty good team in California. I just actually flew down there two days ago to work with these guys. It's the myth of Mo and it's going to be a fabulous film. So what can one man do? I I'm going to tell as many people as I can about Mo. I'm going to teach as many people as I can. I'm going to spread the word about him. Hopefully the documentary film and things like that will make him more of a household name. think the pros know about the guy. mean, he was amazing. But I'm going to continue to carry that legacy forward.

write books like the Intelligent Golf Swing book to get people to understand the mechanics of the swing. And I'll do as much as I can, you know, until I can't do it anymore. And hopefully, and I remember one of my students, I have a whole forum, right, where I teach people online and what I'm said, Todd, goes, he goes, who's going to carry Mo's legacy forward after you're gone? And I said, you guys, you, it's not me, it's all you. It's like, it's like, if I teach a bunch of people this and you guys carry it forward, doesn't that have be one guy anymore? It can be a bunch of us. So, so that's kind of the mission.

Matt Considine (01:13:41.431)
Todd, awesome. For all these things, whether it's the intelligent golf swing, this documentary I did not know about coming out on Moby, looking forward to that. Where can our listeners find it?

The Professor (01:13:42.104)
Well said.

Todd Graves (01:13:53.47)
Go to book, go to the IntelligentGolfSwing.com, get a copy of the book and there's a bunch of QR codes in the book. You can scan those QR codes. They'll send you to my academy. You'll get some free instruction on the QR codes. send you to instructional pages. You can learn all about the swing. That's the best way to get started is the IntelligentGolfSwing.com.

Matt Considine (01:14:11.019)
Okay. Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you again, man. Really this, this, the whole story, your insights, really fantastic conversation. I have a hundred more questions now, which I'm looking forward to keeping in touch in that regard, but very enlightening stuff. And, you know, the legacy of Moe Norman is a big one. And I, and I'm just happy that there's for me, I think that just people like Moe.

are so important to the world and life. there's so many people that are misunderstood. And I think what I take both you and him from this conversation is like, those who aren't afraid to be themselves, aren't afraid to discover who they really are. Like we need more of that. And so thanks for sharing a little bit of it with us today. I'm sure our listeners, I know the professor will be hitting the range and trying the single plane set up about two hours from now.

But we appreciate your time and just your passion for the game of golf, man. Meeting people like you in the game is really, really a joy.

Todd Graves (01:15:14.272)
Thank you.

appreciate that. Thank you guys so much.

Matt Considine (01:15:19.533)
And thanks to you, the listener. you're not yet a subscriber of the pod, please do. It helps the professor and I keep this golf nerdery going. then don't forget to like rate, review, give us a comment on the show, send us an email at the bag drop at newclub.golf. And if you want to connect with the professor and I, the links to the, all the handles, as long with our guests today, Todd, we'll put all those in the show notes as well. The bag drop.

is in partnership with Titleist and the all new SM11 wedges. We'll catch you guys on the next one.