Ryder Cup, Scotland & Golf's Soul with Golf Digest's Joel Beall

Matt Considine (00:02.77)
Welcome to the new club, Bag Drop on Told Stories in Golf. I'm your host, Matt Konstine, here with our co-host, the Professor. Professor, top of the morning, how are ya?

The Professor (00:14.744)
Fall is upon us and I am excited. I gotta ask you, how many dumb purchases have you made in your life? Like just, you walk out and you're like, man, that was, you don't regret it. You're just like, that was absolutely stupid.

Matt Considine (00:22.898)
Come purchase this.

Matt Considine (00:28.102)
Yeah, I've had some some buyers remorse occasionally, probably a lot of stuff I've I've tried to purposely forget nothing specifically that's come into mind. But what about you? What's your new indulgence?

The Professor (00:43.576)
We bought cars. We bought new cars.

Matt Considine (00:45.426)
cars, can be the most dangerous of dumb purchases.

The Professor (00:50.044)
It's so stupid.

Matt Considine (00:52.28)
I actually know, I know I totally forgot you and Claire was it. You sent me a picture that had Claire and yourself standing almost perfectly between two vehicles. It was a, the updated Bronco, which is very, very cool. But then there was a Corvette on the other side and I'm like, my guys reached it. He's at a midlife crisis. it's a Mustang. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But, but you only bought one. There's only one.

The Professor (01:11.82)
Not a Corvette Mustang Mustang. on, get it right man. Mustang not Corvette. Come on forward here.

Matt Considine (01:20.848)
dumb car right here. didn't buy two, you?

The Professor (01:23.318)
I mean, we got, we got both of them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We got both of them. Yeah. You in that picture, if you look back in the dealership, they're all dancing and tossing up money. That's if you look closely.

Matt Considine (01:25.394)
You did. You did get both of them. IK, I misunderstood.

Matt Considine (01:36.114)
So my guy, is this the midlife crisis? Are you there? Did you reach it?

The Professor (01:39.694)
It's the, it was so tired of both her cars, just eating money. mean, the GTI, it's going to be my favorite car I've ever owned, bet, but that thing just ate money and service and all that. So I had to go the EV route. I will say, I thought leasing was, I mean, leasing is typically really dumb. If you're in the EV market, you can lease right now and then buy out your lease after three years for cheaper than you can, then you can 0 % finance it or pay cash on the spot.

So if you're thinking about the EV market and you're wavering, like, I don't know if I wanna go, you could basically go on a three year trial right now. Yeah, if you don't roll that into the purchase, you're burning up money without building any equity in it. But if you want a dual trial right now is your time to get into.

Matt Considine (02:22.706)
Is this your fact of the week? Is this the professor's knowledge sharing with the audience? Lease your EVs.

The Professor (02:26.606)
I mean, could get, I could, I've read so much on cars in the last 10 days. I should have got fired by UGA. don't think I did any work. I was reading about cars and going to dealers every minute of the last 10 days, but all that fall weather Claire's dream car, two door Bronco already. We already got the top off. mean, just easy to easy can do. It takes two minutes to take the top panels off. Anybody can do it. Put them on the side of the garage, go out and cruise around.

Matt Considine (02:47.132)
Nice.

Matt Considine (02:55.698)
It is a sweet.

The Professor (02:56.514)
be enjoying we're going be enjoying football season that's let's say that.

Matt Considine (02:59.826)
My wife was always, I don't wanna say regretting, but she had three kids, we had three kids and we had to update our vehicles and we're not as cool and sexy as the Moore household. We got two Subarus, very safe vehicles that car seats operate very well in, but she misses her Jeep Wrangler so badly. Like she still does Jeep waves to others.

The Professor (03:23.586)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (03:27.772)
driving a Subaru, is, is weird, but we were both, commenting on there's somebody out of daycare that has that Bronco and it is a sweet car. Like it's, it's modern. can tell. And has that modern shape, but it also has some retro feels to it and look to it. It's that's, that's pretty cool.

The Professor (03:45.686)
Yeah, we got the base package too. I mean, it's a Sasquatch, so it's decked out in terms of it can go trail and all that, but it's based inside, which is actually pretty cool. Like there's not really bells and whistles. So you feel like you're in a little bit older of a classic car, which I appreciate. It reminds me of my Jeep as well. but I guess supposedly Bronco and Jeeps don't get along well, like we, you know, we're not allowed waving at other Broncos because that's a Jeep thing. And I guess supposedly we look down on that.

Matt Considine (04:07.57)
I know. Well, of course. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Of course. This is not a car show. This is a golf show. We have an unbelievable guest today in the game of golf. Someone we've long talked about having on the show and finally wrangled him in. You he's not just a writer. He's an investigative reporter. So he's like out in the muck, you know, getting the stories. But senior writer from Golf Digest, Joel Beal is joining us on the show today.

The Professor (04:17.783)
Nuff.

The Professor (04:27.627)
That's right.

Matt Considine (04:37.554)
His debut book, Playing Dirty, I think I've actually referenced the book a number of times on the show so far, but Playing Dirty, Rediscovering Golf's Soul in Scotland in an Age of Sportswashing and Civil War came out this year. Amazon number one bestseller. Very excited to dive into that with him. Professor, have you read a book this year?

The Professor (04:42.447)
yeah.

The Professor (04:59.757)
I've read a few books. I've read Joel's because I love any balance or just something that picks apart in like an academic way in terms of hey in this case looking at golf as this very soulful, you know embodiment of life as a game in the way it's designed and then what has turned into at least the professional level is just greed money driven and control and how those are sort of diametrically opposed to each other

Matt Considine (05:27.846)
I wasn't even...

The Professor (05:29.037)
So that's one of the few books I've read. It hasn't been a reading year for me, disappointingly.

Matt Considine (05:33.202)
Yeah, no, that's reason I asked. I read a study, I think it was Derek Thompson was sharing it, that just people finishing books is so down. like Ivy Leaguers, millennials, Gen Z, across the board. So finishing, I think I'm on six finished books this year. Like I'm having a good book year for myself. And it just reminds me to get off the screen and read more books like this.

The Professor (05:53.314)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (06:01.648)
debut book from Joel, which was awesome. So I'm excited to get to that. We'll probably talk some other things, maybe some timely Ryder Cup stuff here, but.

The Professor (06:08.92)
yeah, got to dive into the captain's picks.

Matt Considine (06:12.124)
tragic, maybe, you know, make him begrudge his beloved Cincinnati Reds. We'll see. Any fact of the week, Professor, you've already illuminated us with the rental market, the leasing market for EVs, but anything else to share with the crowd?

The Professor (06:27.371)
I mean, it is fall season and it's, you know, pumpkin spice latte season. for those that dabble, where are you out in fall golf? Are you, is that your favorite golf or you, do you, do you hate, do you, or you hate leave? I mean, what about the leaf roll? We've talked about this before. You, you still, you know, lost ball, go re T or where are you at right now? Where's

Matt Considine (06:35.314)
Just ramp it up. Absolutely. Number one. Yes.

Matt Considine (06:47.088)
No, Riti, definitely, definitely not Riti. Throw one down in the trees with a one stroke penalty if you want to move it out into the center of the fairway, take two. Yeah, just keep it moving.

The Professor (06:59.179)
I've a friend of mine introduced me to, think a cool rule where it's not a stroke penalty, but you can no longer win the whole. So you play it out, right? Cause it's like, yeah, you saw the ball go there. So keep the pace moving.

Matt Considine (07:09.938)
See, I like the one stroke. It sucks to get the one stroke, but you didn't find your ball. Like I just can't, I don't know, it's too much a departure from the original rules of golf. So you throw it down and you still can win the hole.

The Professor (07:14.113)
Yeah.

The Professor (07:19.553)
Yeah, he was.

He was doing it because he's like, then we just don't even need to search. Like search for 10 seconds, you know, like if you don't find it, throw it down and go. It was kind of definitely a pace of play sort of thing. do you know, okay, so we call it fall, right? Because it's based on the fall of the leaves. Do you know why the leaves fall? Why they change color?

Matt Considine (07:37.841)
Hmm.

Matt Considine (07:41.714)
You sound like my four year old daughter right now. She literally asked me this the other day and as well as questions like, don't know, they just do. They just do, they die. why did the leaves die daddy? But no, enlighten me, give me a better answer. Why do they fall?

The Professor (07:57.568)
Yeah, and it's not they're not even really dying so first they change color It's just because of the shorter days they produce less core the trees produce less chlorophyll And so there's less chlorophyll in the leaves which turn which shows a green so you just see the other pigments that are already there so they're like Carotenoids or something like that and some other word, but the reds purples yellow orange and brown those pigments are always there We just don't see them because the clover

chlorophyll overpowers them. So all we're seeing when the leaves are changing color, it's just an absence of chlorophyll is letting the other pigments come through. So that was something I didn't know until I heard that the other day. But did remember this from science class. So they lose their leaves cause they need to conserve energy and resources over the winter months. So basically what happens is they start, trees start forming a layer at the root of the leaf, like where it's forming a tree and that breaks the leaf.

off seals the tree and that prevents water loss and any potential damage from freezing temperatures is what happens. So it's not really a tree, not really the leaf dying. It's just a tree just cutting it off and then none of the nutrients are getting to the leaf itself. So it just falls off and now it's losing, you know, it's a pigment and everything like that because it's not getting any nutrients from the tree. So there you go.

Matt Considine (09:15.364)
Are you a chop or remove all the lead guy or do you leave them there for the winter? There's a lot of good debate on this with the yard neighbors of what's better for the grass. You let it decompose.

The Professor (09:27.341)
Oh, give me, give me, give me justification for leaving them because I'm lazy. I I leave them.

Matt Considine (09:32.668)
So it's a hipster take, not as many people are on that, but I think the in-between is the route I've adopted where you shred them, you remove the first layer of bass, but you leave some so that if you can cut them up, they decompose easier, it's good for the soil, blah, blah. We'll ask our superintendents what they think of that.

The Professor (09:44.022)
Okay.

The Professor (09:53.87)
I mean down here with the Bermuda, yeah, with the Bermuda we got to keep them off the grass because we still need to get sun in the Bermuda in the winter. Like that matters a ton. But I'll remember that now. I may just borrow Buddy's shredder or something like that and shred up, you know, once every couple weeks. That's easy to do. Cleaning leaves, picking up leaves stinks.

Matt Considine (10:00.614)
Yeah, probably a whole different ballgame.

Matt Considine (10:10.694)
Well, today's episode, as well as the professor's fact of the week and all the chlorophyll of your leaves, if you want your ball to fall on the ground as soft as a fall leaf dropping from a massive oak tree, you should look at your Vokey designed SM10 wedges, them to your bag for better scoring opportunities, crisp contact, optimal flighting.

that low penetrating ball flight that still stops on a dime even in the firmer fall greens, incredible spin from those Bob Vokey magical wedge grinds. They give you everything you need to grow your short game skill. Professor, have you gotten your new Vokeys? I think you're in...

The Professor (10:56.109)
They just showed up the other day. I have not had them out yet because of all the car shopping stuff. We've been one focused household right now, but they are sitting on the dining room table. The box is open. I stare at them with every meal that I have just anxiously awaiting using them.

Matt Considine (11:10.162)
I knew you were a do and I was thinking about you because of all the equipment, drivers, irons, nothing gets me more excited than new wedges. Because of the SPID, because there's just so many things you can do with the wedge. The wedge is the most playful club in the bag. So I always get excited like Christmas morning when I get new wedges. Go get your new wedges, check them out. All the new grinds at Titleist.

The Professor (11:22.689)
Agreed.

Matt Considine (11:38.264)
All right, Professor, let's get on to the show.

Matt Considine (11:43.996)
Joel Beale, welcome to the bag drop.

Joel (11:47.18)
Guys, thanks for having me on. Professor, I also just went through a carbine process this week. I feel, I don't know about you, have the thousand yard stare at the moment. No cognitive dissonance, but a little PTSD. I'm not a man of conflict and going into battle with these salespeople, just, I do not want to do it ever again. So God bless you for going through it. On two fronts it sounds like, so I feel your pain.

The Professor (12:12.397)
You're with me on that. I just know they're taking it over on me and I just accept that. What would you get? What's the new whip?

Joel (12:22.274)
I went with a Hyundai Kono, which sounds very much like a softball coach car, but you know, just, there's some reliability in it. More importantly, was a fiscally responsible move or as much as you can be when it buys a car. So it seemed like no fuss, which is kind what I'm all about.

The Professor (12:40.207)
yeah, Kona's great. I use it as a rental car a good bit. Love it.

Matt Considine (12:44.55)
The Joel, thanks for being here, man. We are so excited to have you on. You're our some of our favorite journalists, favorite journalists. So that's got to be a notch in your belt. But today you're repping your reds. I got to, you know, ask about your loyalty to that ball club. What has kept your fandom alive despite years of

tragic disappointment, ups and downs, where does that come from for you?

Joel (13:18.486)
Well, as you notice, I'm wearing a blue Reds hat because I'm in mourning at the moment. Our beloved Reds just got smacked by Sean Martin's Dodgers. It likely ended the season, but I grew up in Cincinnati. I was never one those guys. I mean, listen, the Reds organization has been so, so painfully bad. It's been 30 years since we've won a playoff series. It's one of the ownerships actually invested in the town, which you can't say the same for Cincinnati Bengals ownership, but

They're just so cheap that they refuse to kind of go out and make any type of purchases yet. I've never wanted to be one of those guys who just jumps to another team. Unfortunately, I've been born into this hellfire and I'll here. Here's where I'll die. So, um, there's been a couple of bright spots the past few years, especially with Ellie Dela Cruz, those a nice pitching staff, but God, like everything, you know, I'm turning 39 next week and I'm like really coming to the realization I'll probably never see a championship in my lifetime. So.

Matt Considine (14:16.11)
It's.

Joel (14:16.378)
but yeah, I, I, I, being said, would, I'll, again, I'll never be a guy who jumps to another team. And, I guess there's some type of lesson in that pain. I mean, it's not as bad as your friend and mine, Brendan, poor us Cleveland Browns, but it's, it's actually almost worse though. And when you think about it, because at least the Browns fans, like that's part of their identity, right? whereas like Cincinnati is like this other notch where it doesn't get the national level for its utility yet. It's just as painful. So.

The Professor (14:45.409)
I appreciate you saying that as a Cleveland guy. said the worst thing that's happened to us is the calves winning the NBA championship because we lost our identity as a sports town. Like our identity were the sufferable loot. Like we just lose. That's all we did. And the calves ruined that for us. We still have it with the Browns still full on into that. yeah, Hey, that's the life of a Ohio sports fan, right? We're just meant to, you know, other than an Ohio state, we're meant to just suffer and be miserable in our

Matt Considine (15:06.31)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (15:10.481)
Well, it-

Matt Considine (15:14.066)
And this will tell you something, because Joel, we were lined up to have you on the show, I don't know, a month or two back and life gets in the way, of course. But I had some gloating at that time to rub in my Cleveland Guardians, know, kind of they building some momentum, looking good. Well, as I check standings today, we dropped below 500 and your Cincinnati Reds are at.

The Professor (15:15.191)
fandom.

The Professor (15:33.933)
It's not good.

Matt Considine (15:40.882)
507, so you guys are just notch above winning half your games. Not terrible this year.

The Professor (15:46.476)
Hey, we sleep better than Sean Martin. Let's be clear though. He has to deal with the Dodgers and what they've done and the spending of money. got a gambling something. know gambling was going on behind the scenes there. at least get to sleep in our misery.

Matt Considine (15:52.178)
Good point.

Matt Considine (15:59.61)
That's a point. You're a good point. That's it.

Joel (16:00.696)
I think what keeps Sean up is trying to, like, oh man, who finished fourth in the 2007 North and South? And he nosed on a rabbit hole. it's, there's no, there's no sports thing that keeps, there's no, there's no baseball thing that keeps Sean up. It's more of his own golf. I mean, that man has forgotten more about amateur golf than we'll ever know. It's fantastic. He's one of my favorite people in the world. And yeah, but man, you ask him about any golf event.

The Professor (16:06.989)
the

Matt Considine (16:16.914)
you

The Professor (16:21.015)
You

Joel (16:29.048)
probably north of 1954 and he can give you a detailed account. It's fantastic.

Matt Considine (16:35.324)
Let's go to another franchise. We're in the timely, we're a rare timely show. We like evergreen episodes, but we'll get to that. This is gonna release a couple, what, three weeks before the Ryder Cup and all the recent stuff. But yesterday, as we record, you put out a really great piece, Joel, just on the post-pressor from Captain Keegan and the dream scenario for your upturned nightmare.

I thought it was really well done. captured a lot of my initial thoughts after hearing his picks and how things went. But I want your thoughts on Keegan as a captain thus far. was with that announcement and so many folks both in media and just Ryder Cup fandom thinking he's picking himself. Like this is just happening. It's what the PGA wanted. We, we, we feel like that's going to be the outcome. And then he doesn't. And, and he goes with the six.

I guess, sensible picks based on a lot of opinions. Was he setting us up? Was he setting the stage? Was this a red herring to show his individual sacrifice for the collective good of this team? Was he looking to unify some guys around him and the team?

Joel (17:53.76)
I certainly don't think he was setting us up. I was lucky enough to talk to him a week of the Scottish Open for her golf digest cover shoot. And it was very much of he's going to pick himself. I mean, without betraying any confidences, like he was going to pick himself. The people around him thought it, PG of America thought it, and most American players thought it. Most European guys thought it as well.

And I think with due reason, the one thing you've heard over and over, or at least we have within the industry the past year, is the European team dynamic was looking their lips at this idea that you would have this.

quote unquote, distracted captain slash the distracted player. And I understood the worries and their aversion to it because I do think inside their infrastructure that wouldn't work. I think inside the American clubhouse it could have, but I mean the gloating, idea that, man, if he does this, we're going to be fine. And again, some of it's probably gamemanship as well.

But the Europeans really do consider themselves authorities in all things Ryder Cup, which it comes from, obviously past results, or least some extent to it. But also the idea that, listen, this is a guy who has made no secret how much he loves this event. there's also the idea that he's 39 years old. he realistically going to have this chance again to make it as a player? The fact that he kind of backed it up.

with his play over the last two to three years. I think a lot of people within the industry thought this was a done deal. Over the past month, was not so much that his play went south, it was more of so many other guys stepped up, guys who were kind of on the bubble. And from what I've gathered in the past nine or 10 days, post Memphis, so kind of going into the BMW and then the Tour Championship.

Joel (19:51.446)
A lot of folks around Keegan were still very much to let's be clear. This was not a decision that was put on Keegan. This was his call because a lot of folks were still telling him you should probably still pick yourself. He looked at it though as all these other guys are playing well. And even though I do think I'm one of the best 12 guys, there's really not that much difference between myself, the Sam Burns, the Ben Griffins of the world, Kaumora Kawa.

And there's that still idea of no one's done this before what I'm trying to do. It does seem like a huge unnecessary risk. I think there's also like a, you know, it's a safe and sound pick. This is the hindsight cup, right? Where everything's always dissected after the point. And this is at least defensible. So I think this was one of those things of, even though it really pained him and from...

from a few people I've talked to it really kind of broke his soul knowing as it came more and more clear that I think the team will be better off with me kind of just full time captain. All the other guys I think were especially the other captains picks were blown away that my gosh, they had just again accepted that he was gonna play. So the fact that this guy would deny himself from the very thing he loves the most so I can play so that we can play better.

You sense this fervor that the American team just hasn't had. I think we're very prone to narratives engulfed both fans and media. And then for years, there's always been this thing of like the European locker room is so much closer than the American locker room. I think that's been a little blown out of proportion, but there is something to be said about they definitely care about it more.

And it's not that the Americans don't, it's just like, I mean, the Europeans says this is what they base their, you win a Ryder Cup, you're set for life. And this is kind of what they build their year round with their careers around. That's just not how American players grow up. At least this generation, maybe it changes when the four, but.

Joel (21:59.032)
to now have that type of avatar, that type of engine in Keegan that permeates the rest of the guys. I'm, sometimes guys just say stuff or words, but you know, a lot of the stuff is off record. I, this is the first time in my 10 years in the industry and really 15 years in sports media that I've seen an American team has fired up as the Europeans come into it. And the fact that the Americans have been playing better honestly since April.

The Ryder Cup itself is kind of already a broken model, right? It very much favors the home team. I think the Americans are going to be favored either way. Now that you have this passion, it could just be something for the fans. I don't know how much action will make a difference, I think this is what Keegan has done is finally shown the passion that maybe fans have that we've never seen out of American players. And that alone, I think, is one of the biggest wins pre-event I've ever seen from a Ryder Cup team.

The Professor (22:53.037)
Yeah, I think you made a nice point in your article about the potential difference of Keegan as a captain, just in terms of his passion, you know, and not just being a Twilight person or coming into it for other reasons and getting chosen for other reasons. And I definitely, you know, I'm skeptical whether to, with the team does this create a different passion inside the 12 players, but I do, I do agree with you Joel. And like the self sacrifice here is incredible because I said, going into it, I'm like, I think he should pick himself in terms of regrets.

If you pick yourself and lose, you don't necessarily regret not picking someone else. You regret that you didn't perform, you didn't win, and you might say, was that the right decision? But if you don't pick yourself and then you lose, you live with that regret the rest of your life. Like maybe if I'd picked myself and played, I could have been that difference maker as a player. And so if they were to lose, he'll have to live with that. So I think he's put himself in a position where sleeping at night could get a lot harder if they were to lose this because he'd be like, I should have picked myself and got in there.

Joel (23:51.672)
I think there's something to that. I would also say though that, you know, this is not a guy who is just telling us he loves it. You know, I think this actually underlines how much he loves the event that he is willing to hurt his own dreams because he thinks of this greater. It's the rare time in sports that this is a communal event. I think that's why Keegan loves it so much. He's not been afraid to tell us how much he, you he's a Red Sox guy. He really gets involved. I mean, that's the reason why he.

The Professor (23:52.053)
And you're.

Joel (24:18.584)
Had so much fun in that 2012 and 2014 event. It's there's that team dynamic for a guy who, you know, admittedly was a very inward facing guy for most of his career and not really brought the best out of him. And I think this is this whole process, the past year and a half, the past year has really been enjoyed for him because it's given him that feeling outside of the three, three or four days of the Ryder Cup. So.

I know what you're saying. That's what I kind of, again, going into the past couple of weeks, I thought too, when I interviewed him, kind of came away with that Teddy Roosevelt quote of, know, far better is it to dare mighty things and to rank with those spirits that know neither victory nor defeat of like, listen, this guy wants to bet on himself.

And yet I think more and more as he got away from it, as the results came in, as he really end gamed everything out, he thought if I really want to win this cup, that's his sole focus. is one of these guys who's trying to be like, yeah, you know, if we can get together and give our best, you know, it'll be a win. And we like, no, to him, it's just the win. Um, and whether you agree that or not, that is, that is his conviction right now. That's the only thing he's based everything off of. He, he, to, to.

The Professor (25:14.849)
Mm-hmm.

Joel (25:32.676)
In his estimation, this gives him the best chance. So yeah, I think he also at the same time is like, listen, if I don't get to play again, like I can live with that. I would not be able to live if I hurt my team, based on my own actions. And I think that's something that's admirable. Because I think,

The Professor (25:44.802)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Considine (25:48.114)
And I thought this was the per, mean, this, I know it's great. And I don't want to take too much on, the writer cup. got plenty of more writing and things to discuss on it coming up. But I, I thought that the show of that self-sacrifice, it really highlights, and this is my attempt at a, at a transition into playing dirty Joel, because in my estimation of my travels to Scotland and

You know, everything we see in the pro games today. Uh, the, the rider cup is this fascinating, um, study of the, the, the history of pro golf in some ways, but, uh, golf as it's viewed from two different cultures. And you have Europe versus the United States Europe where the game originated in Scotland and, and, and Ireland and the like, uh, making its way to England and then across.

Over to the U S but just how we view the game is so different that the way we view our Ryder Cup teams will also be so different. And I know it's a trope that, the, the UK team or the Europe team is always such more a team and they're connected and they're like family. then the Americans are, selfish individuals. Well, golf is a selfish sport, especially at a high level, like

many of the best have had to live in these silos and it's a kind of a scary place to be for regular humans, but they somehow are able to do it. But then you throw this team element of it. And I think without trying to harp on that trope of Americans, individuals, Europe, a team, I do think there is just a cultural difference of individualism versus collectivism. And your book, I thought...

really showed that so well. And I know that wasn't the goal of your book and I want to get to why you wrote it and everything you did. But I felt like this was in a way closing the gap for me on how the game has evolved and how it's continuing to evolve both at a professional level and at the amateur ranks of guys like us just out there trying to enjoy themselves. And there was a

Matt Considine (28:15.762)
piece I wanted to read that was in your chapter on the open, the open itself. And I think my head while I was reading that was...

putting it against our United States Open. But the way you closed out this chapter is just so great. And again, it's about the open, not US, but the other one. Call it British if you want, that's up to you. It's not their defining moment, but rather their gift to the game. A demonstration of golf in its purest form, stripped of all the unnecessary BS. Here was their legacy quietly practicing in the salt air, carrying forward an ancient conversation.

between player and land. They understand what we don't, that our search does not have to be complicated and there's nothing to be caught. It's here, open to all." I highlighted that and I loved it. I knew I was going to read all this podcast when I did. Do you feel that's intact in Scotland? Have they maintained that or is with all this stuff going on after you wrote these beautiful chapters about

the juxtaposition in professional golf versus the soul of the game. Is it surviving, Joel? Is it surviving over there? Is it kept that way? And can we find that in American soil as well?

Joel (29:43.96)
It's definitely surviving. I think one of the, the, the, like the, one of the lineations that I kind of came away, not only from the travel, but just over the past few years is they've been able to decouple what's going on at the top ranks with golf itself. I don't know about you guys, but I feel like growing up to me, it was all just one thing golf, right? What was going on at the tour level? What was going on in your high school team? What was going on just at your course? Like it was all one thing and they've been able to.

I mean, it wasn't even just this schism. think for a while, as the money has been growing, as the professional gains become more Americanized, it became something that they didn't really recognize. because of that, think they've already been going down this path for a little bit for some time. But yeah, it's funny. was very, I won't say worried, but.

interested to see if this premise would actually, you know, it's, I'd been to Scotland many times before and I sensed it, but at the same time, you know, you're only over there for a week or two at a time. Once you ingrain yourself, it will be different. And yeah, it was actually even more accentuated than I thought. they, they really couldn't wrap their heads around. It's funny because they understood the money part. Like that part was very like, yeah, we understood, we understand why someone would take it, but they could not grasp why these

And not just the guys who jumped, but just everybody in general, why they were putting these actions above the entire game itself. And I think a lot of that does have to stem from cultural differences of, yeah, like people want to look out for themselves, but if it hurts the greater good, why would you even consider it, let alone do it?

you know, obviously Scottish golf isn't without, it's worries. I do think they are seeing what we've seen, especially post pandemic of, rising prices when it comes to tee times, they're still very much affordable, but you know, rising prices is still rising prices. And, know, there's, there is worry about are there are certain bigger clubs catering too much to visitors and maybe pushing out some of locals because of that, but

Joel (31:49.504)
Yeah, the game is very much still intact. It's very much still a lifeblood. It's something that they don't understand why it's playing. like, it makes sense, right? When you just grow up with it, it's your normal. think a lot of what they gather that how special they have is from visitors coming over and like, my gosh, you guys have no idea how good you have it. And so that's become ingrained in them over the, especially the past two to three decades. But this idea that

Why is this so complicated for these guys to this top level to understand? Why is it so complicated for the rest of world to understand? This is a very democratic game. should be open to everybody. Why would you possibly put up these, these walls for people to enjoy this beautiful game? And it's funny when, as, as I was going through this process of, throughout the past four years, I've had different people come to me wanting to write a book about what's going on in the top level.

And one of the first things I told my agents, I do not want to do this journey to Scotland to find yourself because it's first of all, it's been done so well by so many people, specifically, you know, Michael Bambergers to the links lands, like my Bible. So that's something that always sticks in my head, but it's been done.

The Professor (32:59.341)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Considine (33:01.18)
Same.

Joel (33:02.916)
and other iterations, including you know, my friend Sean zack did a really good job a couple years ago searching in st. Andrews, a really good book so I didn't want to do that and yet as we're talking to publishers I kept using Scotland as kind of the prism to look through things just in discussions and finally just say you know what like I think there's a way to frame how ridiculous everything has been by showing how good it is over there and hopefully

The Professor (33:08.247)
Mm-hmm.

Joel (33:27.158)
we can really understand why this is so unnecessary and why more importantly, there's a way out of this. It doesn't have to be the way things are. yeah, it's sorry. I it's a very long-winded answer, but yeah, to me, it's such a pure, unadulterated, just it's everything. If you love golf, it's everything that golf should be and more. And it's just so special. And it's one of the few things to me that really lives up to the hype and more so.

The Professor (33:55.8)
Joel, one of things that strikes me in terms of the difference between the Scottish and maybe the American game that I've always pondered and would love to get your thoughts on if this is, you that you're talking about these cultural differences. One the things that stands out to me when you're in Scotland playing golf, no matter where you're at, especially if you're paired with members, the game's primarily about the competition that occurs. mean, this could be for zero money, you know, just straight better ball get done. All right. We won one up and we're done.

You know, the question of how your match go and it's played seriously, right? They play by the rules. Every competition is whole out everything. You had an American golf. The competition is really an afterthought. You know, yeah, you might have your random scratch game at a club, but even you're playing like on a Saturday game, I mean, it's fluffing lies. It's given three footers. There's just, and you get done and the talk is not about the competition that occurred. It's about the other things, including the business of golf.

I was wondering how much you think that might, now that you've spent all that time over there and played with these ideas, does that play any role in these differences where to them the game is about the competition on the grounds and what occurs there versus America? It's so much more than that. It's so much more about the socialization and everything that goes on with the game.

Joel (35:10.104)
It's funny. Yes and no. Yes, I think you're right. The only thing I would add on though is that I feel like afterwards when you ask someone how did it go in America, they always talk about the shots they hit, they they shot, what their score was. You know, they belabor, oh my gosh, I can't I got screwed on this or I hit the greatest shot. Over there, it's how's your round go? They talk about how much fun they had. They talk about the conversations and they talk about how fast they played.

The Professor (35:40.183)
Yeah, that's right.

Joel (35:40.216)
So it's kind of that thing where while they're playing, they're focused on the competition, but afterwards they focus on really what matters. That's the only kind of caveat I put on it. Yeah, they are very much. It's a, they take their golf seriously. Um, I w one thing that was kind of, and again, maybe I was just extremely lucky, but over my months over there, no one be it, you know, a four or five handicap or someone that was, you know, a 30 or 40 handicap.

No one got upset. They just accepted it. What they're what they were as a player and they got on with it. I felt like there is a there's so much this correlation over here to results that they just don't have over there. Yeah, they want to win their match, but it's also not life or death. And they also don't blame themselves. They don't blame the gods. They don't blame bad luck. They just kind of accept it for what it is and get on with it.

I think that would be the only other thing I would add on. yeah, they're definitely, they're serious about it without making it more serious and ruining other people's times if they're not having a good day. But yeah, it's kind of great because you mentioned the socialization too. And one of the great things about golf is the past couple years have brought so many people back into it that either had lost their way or just being introduced to it.

That being said, the barrier to entry here is so high, either it be from a cost standpoint, from just like a knowledge standpoint. Like, I mean, so many guys would go out there and just have no idea on etiquette and you have slow play. it's like, no matter who you are over there, even if you're just getting into it, you somehow know all the rules. You know what to do. People kind of help shepherd the new people on. It just seems like there's the level of acumen from even the beginners to the top. It's just so much more advanced than we are over here.

And I think that also, to me, that correlates to a better, more enjoyable experience.

Matt Considine (37:35.93)
I always felt like the, that those points, both of you guys made there was always summed up to me by the first question you get off the course here is typically what'd you shoot? And over there is how is your game? And that in itself says so much about every bit of the details. Joel, I wanted to, to just comment or maybe ask about the structure of playing dirty, you know, at first I'll admit like

getting into the book, felt like that juxtaposing back and forth tennis game between the professional golf landscape and the authentic links Scottish culture was different. And I was like, well, I didn't know how the narrative, where it would take me, but about halfway through, I was like, wow, this is really compelling. And frankly, if I had to read and I had already read

read another book about the schism, the civil war, and in its entirety the year prior. So I was like, man, it's kind of depressing after a while if you're a fan of the sport when it's about all these things. But I started to realize that it was almost like an elixir for me to have the interchange between the two. And like you said earlier, it did set the maybe background of

how ridiculous it really is if you're able to talk about, you know, the heart of the game and the origin of the game. But I was this a way, was this an elixir for you is what I want to know. Like you spent a whole year digging in, you know, you're one of the top investigative reporters and writers in the game. Did you need to just get away to digest it all? Like, was this the way that you could actually synthesize it yourself? Because I felt like as the reader, I needed it. And halfway through the book, I couldn't put it down because I'm like,

No, this is great. It's really important what's happening at the top of the game, but to read it just as an entirety is exhausting for me. And so I love this interchange. Was that what was playing out for you as well?

Joel (39:46.584)
Absolutely, and you hit on a couple of sentiments there that were tenants to me and principals throughout this whole process because the first like Exactly what you hit like I did not want to do a forensic accounting of everything that's happened One because it's been done before over the last four years and two it's been such a bummer I didn't want to sit again in that for myself or the readers You know, I'm very lucky

I mean, gosh, I'm about to turn 39. Since six years old, I wanted to be a golf rider and I'm extremely lucky. know there's very few spots to do it, especially now is the way the industry is going, not golf industry, but journalism in general. But the problem is when your profession is your passion and it can really start to bleed in. mean, I'm not...

I'm not obtuse to the complications of our world. I know there's bigger things going on outside of a professional golf thing, but to see kind of this real world bleed into this thing I love so much, it really, really was depressing. At least for me personally, really made me question, do I want to still be in the sport if this is the way things are going? And yet I believed not only was this just like a temporary storm, but you know, there was what we still loved about the game was still out there. We just needed to remind people. So.

As you're going, as you write a book, you actually have to almost write a first book to pitch the book. And as I was trying to figure out how would I make this unique to someone, unique in the marketplace in itself, that isn't just that here's everything that's happened. But if someone picks this up five months from now, five years from now, how's it still relevant? And to me, the idea would be let's...

Let's show how much of a, how ridiculous is here's why it's wrong because I think some people don't even realize why this is wrong. and using Scotland as that funnel to say, Hey, here's what this game should be. Here's what it can be. to me, not only was a way to kind of make a book, but it was more of a palate cleanser. It was really this. You know, reinvigorating rejuvenation for me that yeah, like I'm not just.

Joel (41:54.712)
this isn't just some fantasy. I'm not just romanticizing something that didn't exist. Like this is still very much there and still very much alive. And it's actually not that complicated if we just kind of let it be. that's kind of that's how at least I use the framework of the book. And yeah, it was the putting the professional stuff was relatively easy because I could understand the topics I want to. But the kind of gamble was banking on these sentiments for a lot of these people that I didn't

really no existed. I had an idea there or out there, but the thing I wanted to also kind of change the book from is, if there is a through line between other Skyland books, it's usually the author going over there to find themself. And while that can be very endearing, and again, I think Bamberger did it as good as anyone, not only just in golf, but just any writing period.

It's been done before and I didn't want to make it about me. wanted to, hey, Scotland's special because of the people, the towns and the courses. So I wanted to put the spotlight on them. And, you know, I've been lucky through the years to meet some people, but I just didn't want to do the people I knew about. I wanted to meet new people. So that was kind of a risk of, gosh, you know, here's what I think is over there, but I need to really meet and talk to these people. And that's where...

I got extremely lucky. A lot of people helped out of, know, hey, you I'm in industry, you should talk to this person and this person would know someone like that. A lot of the golf clubs in towns were very helpful, pointing me to people who they thought would be good for a book. But yeah, I think a lot of it.

just speaks to how much the game is alive over there that, you know, I was over there for summer, which is a long time, but the same, could be there for two years. And I think the stories would be so much richer and there'd be so many more people I would have met. But the fact that these things were relatively easy to find, I think just speaks to how pure it is over there. that, again, how ridiculous this thing is at the top level right now that over in Scotland is just so much different. And that the fact that these people are so numerous and they're not

Joel (43:51.704)
Their stories are rare to us, to Scotland, that's just who they are. So it turned out to to me at least, the best way to delve into the work and really give it meaning. And just to finish this off, I told you I didn't want to do a forensic accounting. Okay, so if you don't want to say what's happened, then the next question is, why does it matter?

And I think that's, it's one thing, it's very easy to just take a flame thrower to everything. certainly there's been times I've wanted to, and there's been a couple of cases in the book, I think I did. But if you take the flame thrower, then you, then you got to build something back up and okay, it's easy to knock something down, but let's actually then give the flowers to the people to deserve it. And that's where the people in towns and courses of Scotland really came in. And the fact that so many people were willing to share their story, cause the Scottish.

Matt Considine (44:21.797)
You

The Professor (44:26.925)
Mm-hmm.

Joel (44:40.6)
If you guys have been over there, they're not one of those about themselves. That was maybe one of the hardest parts is to try to see that, I'm not trying to glorify you. I'm trying to say that you're this kind of epitome of a bigger sentiment. And I think that helped a lot of folks share their story. they're not ones that like to boast. So that was the only hard part is trying to get folks to talk about themselves in a good way because they don't want to like they're bound in their chest. yeah, to me, that was the best way to kind of build into these.

these bigger topics, these bigger sentiments, and hopefully help the reader understand why any of this matters in the first place.

The Professor (45:17.805)
Joel, were there any, maybe share a particular moment when you were ever in Scotland where it all crystallized, you know, the soul of the game there, like where you're like, yep, like here's the story, like I've seen it now, this is the precipice, now I'm, you know, on the downhill the rest of the way.

Joel (45:35.542)
Yeah, I wouldn't know. I wouldn't say necessarily downhill, because I feel like every day was great and then the next day would be better. It was, gosh, it was something that I still look back to to the point now, you know, as I told you guys in the middle of a move right now, I've very much waged. I just go over there. seems like life is so much better. Right. I know. But I guess the two things that are closest to that are

Matt Considine (45:55.89)
Everything's packed up. I might as well go.

Joel (46:04.984)
There's a greenskeeper at a place called Caradale, which is just north of Mockernhahnisch, about 40 minutes north of Mockernhahnisch. Everyone kind of goes to the Campbell town area for Mockernhahnisch. Dunneverty as a side note as well and Mockernhahnisch Dunes, suppose, as well. But Caradale is just this little nine hole joint and the greenskeeper there, it's it's a one man job. And it's this course that if it was in America, it would probably cost 200, 250 bucks to play. And over there, it's just, you

The Professor (46:11.447)
Mm-hmm.

Joel (46:33.878)
five, six pounds, honesty box. This green keeper is the only full-time employee and he's not only that, he does so much for the town as well. And it's this guy who I think would be, you know, we have a statue of him if someone like this existed in the United States and to them he's just the green's keeper. And everything he's kind of sacrificed for the course to me just really kind of brought in that there is this idea of giving your life.

for the town, for the greater good, for the sport that really hit home. The other thing was, and this was one of dumbest things I've ever done, is before I made the trip over, I sent a tweet out that said, hey, if anyone's coming in Scotland and drinks on me, I just wanna talk about your experience. And a lot of people took me up on that. And I couldn't exactly expense that, so that one hurt the bank account. But at the same time, it was so great because...

I also had to try to take myself out of it. I know I feel this way, but I need to show that other people have this religious experience when they come over. And seeing that so many people did, those who were expecting it and those who kind of thought, no, I thought this would be overblown or I just came for as a guide trip and seeing all these people trying to speak to it.

And yet not really being able to identify why, but just speak of this magic to me really hit home of there is something over here that people can't explain yet. They are drawn to it. I think really just underlines why this place is so special and why it's something that you need to be experienced. And my boss Sam Wyman has always been a good job of showing, not telling. And I felt like that way was really able to show that other people are having this, this religious experience. It's not just this mockish overly similar.

It's a very real thing and it's easy to get and you can find it. It's not something that is hitting behind a wall like it is in American golf. It's for everyone and I'm not trying to overlook the price of a plane ticket or hotels, it really won't cost that much compared to a normal American vacation. It's worth, you owe it to yourself to have this experience.

Joel (48:43.35)
just because if you have any type of love of golf, I promise you your love will be compounded making this trip. And your education as a golfer will be complete as well.

Matt Considine (48:53.138)
By the way, Professor, one of the gentlemen that took Joel up on his Twitter offer that he made his way into the book and insisted I give him a shout out. It's one of our former captains of the Atlanta chapter of New Club, Scott Ford, made his way into the book. So Scott, we know you're listening.

The Professor (49:07.765)
Of course, of course Scott did. No surprise there that Scott found this way to have a beverage in Scotland.

Joel (49:14.52)
You know, quick shout out to Scott, because I was lucky to meet him at the Dunvegan. And I still remember asking him, he was coming off, I think that toward the end of the trip. I just, my first question was, how was it? And he kind of just looked to the side and just said, it's spiritual. And what followed, you could tell was just, it was my first time meeting him. It was very cathartic for him. And that's...

And I say it just because his experience was not singular. So many people have this out of body experience and it's just, it's, it, it fulfills and under, and I'm getting emotional just talking about it. It's, it's just so great that so many of us are able to have this experience and it really kind of backs up why we devote ourselves to this stupid game. Um, it's a game that really can break you down and requires a lot of, you know, as a player, but as a fan.

and to have it repaid like that. And it's in a way, it's your way of giving back as well. Especially, mean, so much of these Scottish towns are subsidized by visitors and by the game itself. And so kind of to pay homage while I also feel like you're contributing, it's just something that it's, again, I keep saying spiritual, but to me it is. really, if you believe in the game, if you love the game, even my dog agrees, it's something you gotta do.

Matt Considine (50:35.484)
Hear, hear, hear.

The Professor (50:40.045)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (50:40.646)
Seconded seconded I I'll further that with So when I read I highlight certain things, but then I write down Quotes right things I take from books that I put into a note on my phone that that is Matt's favorite golf quotes and and The one that I got added there was a couple actually but the one that furthers your point there Joel was

While golf may count our strokes individually, its soul lives in those who share its journey. And you know, that spiritual conversation, yeah, those that haven't been or haven't maybe met that point in their golf journey, they may not understand, but those that are listening, those like Scott, those like the two of you here with me today, we know it's very real and it does connect us to that sense of belonging as a golfer.

that sense of collectivism I kind of started with. And it's sad to me that it requires the plane flight to Scotland to get, and I feel, gosh, that just, if, to the point of everyone getting there and experience it for yourself, it is accessible. You can go do it. Go do it. But I always say, can we get like 10 % of it to come back? Can we bring, what can we do?

to come back and get our local clubs to make it more open to all, to understand that this game and what it provides us is so much more important than a score or our individual pursuits or the statue outside. That was the one point I wanted to just solidify with your comments. The other piece of that that I thought, the Caradale superintendent story,

What I took from that as well as some of the pro golf analysis, was this ideal of, and Professor, you and I talked about this on a recent episode, of contentment with not everything has to be the perfect situation. And where I saw that come up, it's coming back to me now, you talked about that with the Caradale.

Matt Considine (53:03.654)
Experience and and sometimes good is good enough and it doesn't taint this thing by chasing Whatever it is you're chasing You brought that up in your interviews you talked about in the book how? You had all these interviews that lined up in some pan out some don't but you Begrudgedly went to one and I'm blocking on who it was exactly but it wasn't the best interview It wasn't the didn't deliver you the great story

But I feel like you still said how it mattered, how it's not always gonna be the best story. It's not gonna be the wow moment, but it still matters because it's a shared experience. And having contentment with that, I guess, is a takeaway I took from your book, both in my fandom of professional golf as well as my own golf life and going to the local Muni down the street. And yeah, I could.

bitch about the trees that need trimmed or bitch about the speed of the green. I could also just enjoy it.

Joel (54:05.398)
And I think we're, gosh, we are so guilty of that. I say we, both fans and media, because yeah, a lot about professional golf isn't what it should be. And I think some of that criticism is warranted. if you criticize things because you care and love about them, I don't think that's necessarily you just want to crap on them. But I think a lot of that comes from a passion and love.

That being said, gosh, we as a sport complain so much about every little thing. I mean, you saw it with the tour championship, right? I think a lot of people hated the staggered start to the tour championship universally. I can't tell you how many times last week I start seeing people like, you know what, the staggered start, Tommy won another one. And it's like, wait, now we're complaining about like, we at least, we can't be.

The Professor (54:43.34)
Mm-hmm.

The Professor (54:54.861)
Ha

Joel (54:55.724)
We can't hate everything. If everything stinks, nothing stinks. I think our friend Kaupater's very much on that. He's always someone who tries to see the grace and gratitude in things. Again, some things are, the criticism is warranted, but not everything is warranted. Matt, you mentioned the story of, I met this man who did these great stories during the open week at Trune.

Matt Considine (54:57.138)
you

Joel (55:24.536)
And you know, like extremely nice man and it started out that these stories were just kind of, you know, stories per se. They were just kind of, you know, things that happened to them. um, you know, it had been a busy day at the course. It didn't help that, uh, my friend Jamie Kennedy had set up around at Western Gales that I had to pass on. like, I'm kind of sitting here like, oh my gosh. But then like, yeah, I just got over myself. I'm like, Hey, this is, this week means the world to him. This is the guy.

who had flown to the open for years and years and years, who had made friends meeting people. And I know I'm guilty of this at times, but what we think sometimes as these major weeks, which we know they are celebrations, they are work for us, but they're also the best weeks of people's lives. It's, I think, something that we have definitely lost sight of, usually, I think even more so over the past four or five years.

And really just kind of taking a breath settle down and realizing how good we have it at times I think that's something we that that's this whole experience really taught me and what that man taught me and I've tried to bring it back to my own writing I've tried to bring back to the stories we tell because there's a lot of there's a lot of chrism There's a lot of bad you can open your social media feed and see that and again some of its warranted But not everyone needs to do it And I think there's something to be said about trying to bring that joy try to bring the light side the good side out that awesome

and unfortunately gets ignored too often.

The Professor (56:48.577)
Yeah. I think you've touched on something deep here, Joel, that, know, all this critique and just ongoing criticism of the pro game, I think is evidence for its lack of soul. There's, there's not something deeper that we have to fall back on and be like, well, yeah, okay. We're nitpicking the tour championship, but at end of the day, doesn't matter because this is the competition we're celebrating. And I think the majors always have that, right? They don't get nitpicked in the same way, except arguably the PGA, because it might be.

pseudo major at this point. It's just doesn't. now people are nitpicking it like, should it be match play? But when you're in Scotland or the game itself, even within America, we find this, you know, go to Sweden's Cove that say you, you might start nitpicking things and then you go, wait, what am I? That's beside the point. Right. think, and I think that's just a, an emblematic of the point you made with the pro game that it's lost this deeper ethos that we have to fall back on where we can be like, get over ourselves. Who cares what they do at the tour jam and shit. don't.

have we've lost that to fall back on. So we are in this perpetual cycle of just critique, critique, critique, critique. Cause we're trying to capture something that we just, we don't have anymore.

Joel (57:57.154)
Yeah, it's...

I think we were actually on this road for some time. It's just, never quite understood it. Like if really that the, the, the schism has just, anything, kind of really encapsulated it and maybe kind of brought the end a little bit, brought the end closer to the one it was. But yeah, I mean, you've been following the professional game. It's been going down this path for some time and kind of one of the things kind of at the end I realized is that we, it's very easy to blame live and it's backers for doing this.

The Professor (58:22.091)
long time no.

Joel (58:30.946)
this thing to our game, but you know, really they just kind of saw what we did in it that so many of the top levels, this was a foundation that already had cracks in it and they exploited it, but it was there before they came in. And that was another reason why I wanted to go back to Scotland because I felt like they had a foundation that was something that wasn't going anywhere that could be built upon. Whereas our game was kind of already a house of cards in many ways. So.

The Professor (58:59.575)
Mm-hmm.

Joel (59:01.024)
Yeah, it's very easy to make those other guys, the boogeyman, the bad guy, and in many ways they are. at the same time, there's a lot of fault, there's a lot of blame on the tour side, on art, on just the American public side about the stakeholders who've kind of let the public game get to the state.

Yeah, this is not to throw blame. It's just more of a call for accountability and to show that there is a better way to do this. And it doesn't have to be this way. And hopefully, yeah, mean, that requires a lot of change, but I think the first start of this is recognizing we have a problem. And I do think there are those in power that do recognize this is not a sustainable way.

how they go about it, dismaying that, I think is very much a point of discussion. But I do think there is this realization that we have this wealth of people that have come into the game. Were we prepared for, is this the most, how do we keep this going? know, like, cause you know, the things that still plug American golf, you know, access is still among them. Price is still very much among them.

The Professor (59:57.014)
Mm-hmm.

Joel (01:00:10.786)
I mean, from a diversity standpoint, we have a terrible record. Inclusion, there's just so many things we need to battle to make.

to make this game what it can be. And luckily, I think, again, it's very easy to get down about that. I do think what we have that other sports don't have is a passion for people to wanna bring that change and that people who do love it and who do wanna see the best of it. So we at least have the ingredients to start doing something, and we have the means to start doing it. If we can start taking greed and self-centeredness away, that's a start.

And I am not, it's going to take years and it's going to take a lot of work. But I do think we have what it takes. We have the elements to bring about this change and, you know, to, to, to have what the Scottish have in golf.

Matt Considine (01:01:01.828)
I think that's, I love the optimistic take of it because I think we need it. Like we need more people to believe that. And, you guys are furthering a point that's a little half-baked thought I've been having, maybe a shower thought that pops in every once in a while, but how, the, best of golf is, is possible. having what, what Scottish golf culture mostly is, for more people.

in the largest golf country in the world of the US is possible. And like you said, right at the Hopjoll when you were a kid, it was all the same to you. know, whether it was pro golf on TV or your high school match and gosh, that resonates with me. Like, yes, that's always what it's been. And it's funny, I'll use a word for another rabbit hole, but the bifurcation of...

technology, people saying that, no, the pro game needs to play different equipment than the rest of the amateur world. And we need to bifurcate, make it two separate things. I've almost evolved because of all of this to, to force myself to almost bifurcate the game of what is it to be great golf for all of us versus what it is to watch professional golf and enjoy that. And so it really has been.

The Professor (01:02:06.861)
you

Matt Considine (01:02:24.848)
bifurcating in a lot of ways. I just, guess when it like, let's use the technology real quick as to further my point. If I want to play the same equipment as Roy McRoy and Bryson DeChambeau. And I want to see like that connects me more to that experience that we're playing the same game, we're playing the same equipment. But if that forces elements of my golf club to spend a

a couple million dollars on lengthening the course, maintaining unsustainable green speeds, just upping the cost and preventing people that live in my neighborhood from ever being coming members of that club. If those elements are doing that to the game, well then it's hurting our chances of having the best golf experience in the U.S. So I needed to bifurcate. I needed to not, you know, I need to think about these things totally differently and I need

other golfers on the board or helping make these decisions also to bifurcate those two things. And that's so hard. And really what you, what I think maybe you're saying and Kevin, you as well is that, gosh, why can't pro golf actually help us with that versus hurt? It's clearly hurt that element of it. heck we had Rue McDonald on the show not too long ago, who's in your book as well, Joel. And we talked about how it's hurting over there.

The Professor (01:03:40.205)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (01:03:51.218)
even though they're better at protecting it and being more stewards of it, there are those factors. think he had some funny ones of, ball washers and driving ranges. Driving ranges was, was the talk at a lot of these clubs. They have to have it now, now. And that never was the case a hundred years ago, but, I could, that's a whole nother discussion, but it, it's certainly. It would be great to see our professional game support that versus hinder it.

Joel (01:04:20.886)
Yeah, you hear the term so often of like what the stakeholders can do to help at the grassroots level. And I rarely hear any follow up of what they mean by that or how they can actually help. And I think a lot of it to me just comes down to leading by example, because so many people introduction is what they see on TV, right? What you see these pace of play things is because you see guys reading the putt from three different angles. You see

You know, my gosh, why isn't our course as green as what I see on TV? And there needs to be this level of this is different. This is not real. This is not what you should expect. It's like turning on a baseball game and seeing, well, wait a minute, why doesn't my softball field have the same grass as Fenway? And there's this lack of understanding. think a lot of that comes down to.

Actually, it sits on golfers not educating their fellow golfers and comes down to clubs not kind of bringing people into the fold. But yeah, I think if the tour could really make. this is again, like I know they're trying to their business, they're trying to present the best product, but is there a way they can do that that can at the same time help the actual sport?

You know, like, gosh, like someone, we were talking about this the other day, like, imagine going to a true public course, like, it'd be really, I mean, it's, there's so many of these events that look so much like the same one, like, instead of going to another TPC course, instead of going to a tournament that has no soul, like, what if, like, they do show up to like an average, you know, 6,300 course, maybe these guys go low and maybe at the same time, like, is there a rollback equipment that we hear? Like, what could they do to make it a little bit different and to bring it to the people?

I do think the new leadership is re-evaluating everything because he has no attachment to the sport, good and bad. He's got no attachment to the league. He's got no attachment to what, just because of the things they were done in the past, that's what we need to do in the future. I do think this is probably our best chance for shakeup because I mean, that's the reason why these Rogue Leagues were interesting in the first place, right? The PGA Tour had fallen into this stasis that

Joel (01:06:31.48)
it became like you it was there was just this lack of creativity. And there was this idea of we see these things at our level. Why can't the top level have these same kind of fun elements instead of just 72, 72 holes of stroke play that looks just so much the same week after week after week. And again, I understand there you want some level of consistency if you're running a golf league, but that's just not how golf real golf works. And I think the new leadership is aware of that. I think they're aware of

We had this great moment of experimentation should be on the table right now. Fans of, they're willing to put up with it because I think at this point we've heard loud and clear what they want is not what we're giving. So this is the time for change. I do think you'll see it, how long it will take to implement it. I still think like 27 is probably, 20, 27 is probably the first.

viable year you'll see true change, but I do think it's coming. I hope it's made with the intention of making the game more palatable, more fun, and more like what we see in our own game.

Matt Considine (01:07:41.22)
I, well, one last question as it relates to, plan dirty and, and we'll go to the Scotch link side. you wrote down, you wrote something that made me chuckle cause the professor and I have done many podcast episodes on some of our favorite courses, some architecture focused ones. And, and, and this made me laugh. But he said, I, I'm trying to try and heroically fail to minimize hyperbole when it comes to course talk.

Like it is hard, it is so hard, especially in Scotland to not talk about these places like, it's just so good. But let's do it for a second if you will indulge me. What's the one course that you experienced in Scotland throughout this journey that you would want to be a local member?

Joel (01:08:20.984)
Absolutely.

Joel (01:08:31.234)
So the, gosh. All right, so here are my three. I know I can't do one, just, can't. The one I had never played before that really just blew me away. know Jim Hartzell wrote a lot, but Don Avery. That was just such an experience to me that like, my gosh, how is this not on the level of the top, you know, dozen courses you need to play over here. Understanding it's really out there.

The Professor (01:08:46.913)
Mm-hmm.

Joel (01:08:57.974)
But as much as, and I love Makar Hanash, don't get me wrong, that was an experience as well. But gosh, to have done everything in your backyard, to be able to play that on a regular basis, it really shows you that par doesn't really mean anything. The yards don't mean anything. It was just so much fun.

The people I met there just, they all, think, were having the same experience I were. Those who were local and those who were visitors are just like, why don't more people talk about this place? This is fantastic. This is so much fun. Gosh, the second, this is, I've loved this since, you my first time going over there was 2009. My dad.

really introduced Scotland Golf to me as a president for graduating college. You he saved up a lot to do it. It really, it changed my life because it really kind of let me know what was out there. But even from that first trip over, Aurora to me really just spoke to me. Just the people in the town, I the course itself, yes, but just the people in the town, people at the course, they understand what they have is not on level of a championship course. And yet,

Everyone I've talked to over there, it's 20 minutes north of Dornic. This sounds blasphemous, but I think I would rather play if I had 10 chances in that area, I'd play Brora nine times and Dornic one. And that has nothing to do with Dornic as a course.

The Professor (01:10:15.925)
Move.

Matt Considine (01:10:16.556)
Wow.

Joel (01:10:19.992)
I do think it's become a little bit more Americanized of like, kind of look at you like, you you're a visitor to Disney World of get you in, get you out. Like it's still very nice. It's, it's again, I, you talk to architecture buffs, it's arguably one of the best courses. I mean, arguably the best course in the world. Certainly one of top and one I enjoyed. I think it's obviously right there, but.

The Professor (01:10:36.929)
Mm-hmm.

Joel (01:10:42.11)
speaking to that spiritual, that communal experience, there was just something about Aurora that's just, it's like home cooking to me. It's so much fun and there's just something that takes you back to another time for that.

And then the third and gosh, I, this is almost jump on the bandwagon because, know, 15 years ago, a lot of Americans didn't really know about it as much. And I worry it is starting to become something it's not, but you know, North Baric, it's just, to me, it's, so unique.

The fact that when it bleeds into town, devoted, I tried to devote an entire chapter to it. I feel like that's the one chapter I can't read because I feel like I didn't do a good enough job capturing why that place is so special. But I've been lucky enough to make a lot of friends over there. It's such a wonderful area in general. You have Gullen right down the road. have Glenn, which I think is all a wonderful course as well. Dunbar down the road. have all these, mean, it's just, it's a great area to be. But to me, North Baric is, every shot is memorable. Every hole is memorable.

You feel like you're on a big stage. And just like, I just remember thinking like, how fun is this? Every shot you're being asked something that you haven't really been asked for before. There's just this experience where you're like, to me it's heaven, it really is. So I know that was a terrible job of answering that question, but those are the three I think, if I really had to choose, that's where I'd want to be. I'd probably default.

I'd probably do the full North Baric just because I am a man who likes his points afterwards and the fact that you have a couple bars right where it's worth help.

The Professor (01:12:19.181)
Yep.

Matt Considine (01:12:20.954)
And you're going to get a lot more visitors at North Barrett than the other two, probably just from sheer travel logistics.

Joel (01:12:24.44)
You do get a lot more visitors. If you're to play 54 every day, then Everdeen is probably the spot. But yeah, gosh, one of those three, that's all I would need. I'd be happy for life just playing any of those courses.

The Professor (01:12:26.509)
Yeah, just take that train straight from Edinburgh out there. That's a dream.

Matt Considine (01:12:36.914)
It's awesome.

Matt Considine (01:12:41.734)
I think the professor would co-sign definitely on those three.

The Professor (01:12:44.725)
A co-sign on all three of those, know, maybe obviously St. Andrews is spiritual. Ely always stands out for me, but it's hard to turn down North Berwick when you think fly straight to Edinburgh, take the train, jump on the train with your clubs, get off the train, walk, you know, five minutes and you're on the first tee. That's a, that'd be a dream.

Joel (01:13:02.732)
And even as you say that, I'm thinking like, I not do Ely right? Did I not do Krill

The Professor (01:13:07.897)
Right. I mean, you got arguably the most perfect golf course in the world with Murfield, right? Like in terms of just strict golf course routing layout. mean, it might be the most perfect course that exists.

Matt Considine (01:13:08.144)
Yeah, yeah. Did I let the weather affect me too much in Cruden Bay?

Joel (01:13:20.856)
Yeah, and that was something too, because I think Muirfield does get this knock of being snooty. like, this is actually a perfect encapsulation of the differences between here and there is that, you know, you ask, if Muirfield has this, you know, I don't want to say, well, yeah, we'll call it stigma of being unwelcoming. And certainly there is a stuffiness there that you don't see at other Scottish courses. And yet if it was in America, it'd be the friendliest club in the world. mean, it still allows public play twice a week.

The Professor (01:13:46.401)
That's right.

be a beacon.

Joel (01:13:50.296)
Yeah, now granted, very expensive, but it still allows you in. And yeah, there's places, you know, I lived the last 10 years in Fairfield County in Connecticut, which is around on the border of New York. And I've been lucky enough to play a lot of the great courses in that area. yet.

I just, don't have the appetite to go back because there is that level of, know, I'm a guy that grew up and worked at public courses. That's how I got into the game. And I've never ever like felt quite at home being at country clubs the most part.

And yet even at Muirfield, despite the stigma, despite things I don't really agree with, it still felt more welcoming than almost any American course I've seen. So it's funny that Muirfield is one that I struggle with the most because obviously, as you mentioned, it's one of the best open venues, it's just one of the best courses, it's one of the best routings. They do a great job of preserving history and yet it just did not seem copacetic with the idea of being kind of open for all, being more invested in the community.

The Professor (01:14:34.423)
Mm-hmm.

Joel (01:14:49.528)
But yeah, also that by the reason I say I struggle with it is because again, against if it was here, it would have a totally different reputation.

The Professor (01:14:58.411)
Yeah. It's like the conflict of, caddies can play there and they can bring guests for five pounds. Like has all these admirable things where you'll do your point, Joel. If you strip from it, like it's context of being in Scotland. If you plopped in America, would stand. I mean, nothing would even compare to it in America in terms of the things they do to get people to come play their place, you know, obviously expensive on the full day stuff. But even if you just play what 18 holes was like 200 pounds just to play.

18 holes, I my guess for you, you know, my country club, which I love and do they do a great job, but it's almost that just their guest fee.

Joel (01:15:37.464)
Yeah, it's I mean, you hit on a great point there of, you North Baric, a of my a lot of the guys I have got to know there are caddies at other clubs. mean, if anyone's familiar with the American game, know, caddies make a good living, but not the living to afford certainly a top 100 course in the world, top 50 course in the world like North Baric. And that's just that's normal over there, you because it only cost a thousand pounds a year to belong to these places. So.

The fact that it is, these best courses in the world over there are still open their doors to anybody. doesn't matter what you do as a profession or occupation, who you are, what your family is. It's funny because there is still very much a class system over in Europe and Scotland. It just does not apply to golf. And that's just something that really just speaks to what I believe in life, but what I believe golf should be.

The Professor (01:16:18.935)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Considine (01:16:21.746)
Yeah

The Professor (01:16:28.301)
That's right.

Matt Considine (01:16:29.542)
Yeah. Amen to that. think the last point maybe I just wanted to share with you Joel, as a reader of your book. mean, your first book, first congrats on getting the first book out. You've probably had hundreds of other ideas and we don't have enough time left to get into like just the process of writing a book and get it out. You talked a lot about the structure and the early steps, but maybe that's the next time we could have you on for your next book.

but I did want to just, this came from something Kyle Porter said on our show that has really stuck with me ever since, which was no tears in the writer, no tears in the reader. There was a section that really affected me in your book and it had to do around the time I wrote down that while golf may counter strokes individually, its soul lives in those who share its journey. The one that connected with me the most was Oliver.

the father of a daughter who was battling some health issues that you played with at Crayol. And I don't cry often, but you did move me to tears. It just so happened I had a bookmark that my daughter had drew a picture of us on in the book. So it really solidified for me like this game isn't just about playing these venerable places and chasing

a list or chasing more, better scores, self-improvement, all those things are fun and great, but it really is a game about people. And it might seem selfish that it's an individual pursuit and we played our own, but really the game in its truest sense is about people. I think this was my accolade I wanted to share with you was sense.

to the Lynxland by Michael Bamberger. I think your book was the best at highlighting people. I really do. I loved how you highlighted the humanity of those that you met. Not always making it about your own self-discovery, even though there was some sections I found pretty profound in that. But I loved how you talked about in that experience with Oliver, you know.

Matt Considine (01:18:54.246)
just put life in perspective and golf's role in that. I wanted to know what effect that had on you or maybe a similar person from the book.

Joel (01:19:04.568)
Yeah, and I was lucky where that happened. I think it was in my first two weeks while I was over there. It also really kind of, you know, it was a good reminder of sometimes these things we think matter in life really don't, especially when you hear, you know, certain things that other people are going through. It's not to minimize our own battles, because you could always compare it to this other awful things going on in the world. But it was a good reminder of...

Yes, there are these concerns going on in the professional game, but for a lot of people, golf is just a getaway to kind of keep the real world out for a few hours. And you mentioned our friend Kyle. Kyle does a great job. He's talked about this a lot about, he doesn't write about golf. He uses golf as to write about life. And I think that's the reason why I connect with him, with Sean Martin, with Brendan Porath. There's

Kevin Van Valkenburg, there's this belief that we're very, very lucky to be in this game, that we all love this game. But I think what really draws us all together is that we understand golf, helps us understand everything else so well. And it brings us all together in a way that not really many other sports do.

And yeah, I am happy to report the last I talked to Oliver. Daughter is doing well. He he's a little bummed because of me he had to go home. He's like hoping he can get back to Scotland soon. yeah, I think for all the madness the past four years and kind of what I took away out of the book, we're still very, very lucky to have this game in our lives and hopefully the book.

Matt Considine (01:20:29.842)
Yeah.

Joel (01:20:46.38)
You know, I didn't want this to be a slog and that's kind of also why I use Scotland as a prism because there is a joy there. We should focus on the joy and I think the joy should that the joy definitely outweighs all the bad stuff. We just sometimes need a reminder of that. It's there and that we need to focus on the good things and not necessarily give the bad the the hot air they sometimes ask for.

Matt Considine (01:21:09.882)
Yeah, it definitely is the breather. I can't definitely recommended your book to a number of good friends now and more will enjoy it as well. So I'll link to the publication from Back9press in our show notes here. But as we round out, I skipped over a bunch of sections today. I knew we'd get going and I'd miss a bunch of stuff I wanted to ask you.

True to form, ask any of your journalist friends, true to form, we're usually, we just tricky in getting on the podcast and then we hit you up all the time to have you back. KP knows that now, poor Ath has experienced that wrath with Cleveland sports season when any team heats up, we bring them back, but we'd love to have you back to talk about so many things that you're diving into. But I'd love to hear just like in your world right now, is there any current development in golf that

You're always got your ear to the ground, of course. Don't need to share anything you can't. But what's something that excites you right now that you're currently diving into that we can look forward to some of your pieces on?

Joel (01:22:19.8)
Yeah, think one thing that's not necessarily, one thing I've been working on for almost two years is an investigation into one of the governing bodies in the sport. That's currently kind of going back and forth with few other people. Hopefully that kind of sees the light of day by the end of the year, but I think it's something that unfortunately has been simmering under, simmering under.

Surface for some time and needs to be shown the lights up and very lucky where a lot of people have shared their stories So I know it's very vague, but that's something I think People should be excited for coming up

Uh, this is a sport of the hold. I think this is a, you know, the fall is usually the slow time of the year, right? You know, after the rider cup, um, kind of a chance to take a breather, but it will be interesting to see what the new PGA tour leadership kind of brings, brings for, because I think we're about to see a meaningful change in a way that even the live era didn't usher in. If anything, it just kind of was more of the same really. Um, and I think that excites me that these things that we've wanted for some, some time that

how would it be re-imagined if we would start from scratch? And I think how that happens, the voices of the tent that are gonna happen, because of who the people that are gonna be ultimately making these decisions, I think it's gonna be a really exciting time for professional golf. And I do think the sport and the game's gonna be better for it. How we ultimately get there might, it could be a little rough, but for those who have really...

had this existential crisis about seeing what the professional game has turned into. I do think there's light at the end of the tunnel. And I do think there's reason for hope that maybe we may have had in some time.

Matt Considine (01:24:02.182)
Love it. Love it. Well, Joel, thanks for joining us today and thanks everybody for listening. We got a bunch of new episodes coming out here soon with some other exciting new guests. The professor is back in academia, but he's with us, which is a delight to stay tuned for future professors, fun facts of the week. And don't forget to rate, review and any wherever you are.

Your support is so appreciated by the professor and I, and we just love this little community that's been around this silly little show diving into this game of golf and what it gives us in our lives. Thanks to our partners at Titleist, the number one ball in golf, and we'll look forward to catching everybody on the next one.