Matt Considine (00:01.966)
Welcome to the new club Bag Drop Untold Stories in Golf. I'm your host, Matt Considine, founder of New Club here with my four ball partner for the 2025 US, USGA four ball November 17th, White Homs Country Club. Here we go, Professor. How are you, sir? Slaunch a good morning.
The Professor (00:26.025)
I feel like we never see each other anymore this semester, man. It's been, it's just been a buzzsaw. so I don't know if people actually want to look in underscores of the four ball. We'll see, know, lightning in the bottle might happen.
Matt Considine (00:37.56)
I know they call it, yeah, you're right. We don't, we haven't seen each other swing a golf club in eons. Maybe we should just like send each other videos here as we get closer to our tee time. Well, I'll look at it. I didn't say you have to look at it. I'll look at it.
The Professor (00:49.193)
I can't I hate looking at my swing. refuse to look at my swing. Look at it like once once a year not Yeah, but if it's on the camera, it's you know, I'm gonna look at it It's just Pandora's box that we're opening there and then I'll be tinkering and doing stuff I shouldn't be because I'm not knowledgeable enough about the golf swing. But you know
Matt Considine (01:05.582)
What are we doing as our prep here leading up to? Do we need to discuss more strategy? feel like a week has passed since our last discussion around this. Have we done anything? Have we implemented anything? I went to the gym once.
The Professor (01:21.821)
I mean, I'm just trying to get out to the golf course right now. to me is just, just even driving by and seeing the golf course is a win right now. I'm, know, pure osmosis, just visualizing any golf swings is all I'm trying to do. I mean, you're playing chess and I just want to sit down in the room. That's all.
Matt Considine (01:33.068)
Okay. So drive by some golf courses. That's going to be our.
Matt Considine (01:41.068)
I did make a decision. I'm going to go with the college putter for sure. I'm very committed to that because in something you said, really resonated with me, which was, like you, gotta, I, when things like arm bars and, and anchor putters and, and, these things, there's like, it's almost like you're playing for the miss, meaning your, you're not, you're not going for the full potential.
The Professor (01:44.623)
Okay. All right.
Matt Considine (02:10.606)
What sealed the deal on this was Sashio Mackenzie was on Sallie's podcast and they were talking about on the NLU podcast, they were talking about putting in the science behind it. he actually, yeah, one little thing he dropped was the range of motion data science supports that when you increase range of motion, this is an argument against anchoring and the like, but when you increase range of motion, it actually produces a higher percentage.
The Professor (02:17.137)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
The Professor (02:21.521)
Good listen, by the way. Go listen to our friends over there.
Matt Considine (02:39.118)
of putts made and so I, there it is for me, man. It's like, why play, we're not going out there to shoot 75. Like I need to roll in a couple 15, 20 footers. And right now the best chance I have at doing that is having some old school feels with my Cali yes. So that's what I've done for the team this week.
The Professor (02:48.018)
Right.
The Professor (03:02.235)
Well, I'll make sure my college putters back in the bag. It's currently back in the bag is now it might get replaced if our friends at 3dp give me the putter they're building by the time it comes along. But here's the thing for me, I'd rather lose with two hands and no other skin on the grip than having an arm bar and winning. That's where I stand on. I'd rather lose, you know, without having that grip on any other piece of the body other than the hands.
Matt Considine (03:31.234)
I think your, your stance on that is foreshadowing what I'm assuming your stance is on today's discussion. You and I, where we're talking about reinstated midams, a little teaser professors dropped the last couple of times on the show that we finally are going to dive into and have a hearty discussion on. feel like there's on one hand, the purists who see the surge of X-pros now in these amateur events.
namely the US mid-end that just occurred in September. And it's really a threat to the integrity of the amateur game. And then on the other hand, we have this kind of modern interpretation of what is an amateur with NIL and the like, and how they're really indistinguishable from a pro when it comes to their trainings and everything there. So I think this is one of the really most thoughtful debates going on right now in golf. So I think it's perfect.
The Professor (04:19.293)
That's right.
Matt Considine (04:28.792)
fodder for you and I to dive into here today.
The Professor (04:31.897)
Yeah, there's no better fodder than just a completely discriminated against, underrepresented, impoverished group of individuals than the former pros. No better example of American golf than like this being an important topic to discuss and making a huge deal out of a very, very small group of individuals and making sure we change every rule and make sure we privilege them. That's just what we do in American golf.
Matt Considine (04:40.814)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (04:51.748)
and beating up on...
Matt Considine (04:57.986)
Well, and taking advantage of another, you know, poor group of professional mid-ams, as we've called them before this whole debate, know, those folks that just have so much flexibility and freedom in their schedule to play and all these cocktail tour events, like, is it fair to take this away from them? I think this is a remarkable date debate around a bunch of idiots in the game of golf, and you and I are included. So this is...
The Professor (05:20.177)
My night.
The Professor (05:26.001)
That's perfectly said.
Matt Considine (05:27.726)
This is perfect for this show. Before we get there, any alternative facts you can educate us with this week?
The Professor (05:35.357)
Well, you know, we're couple of weeks past Halloween now. What's the last candy in the dish for you? You you've been just chewing down candy for two to three weeks post Halloween. You're going through, you know, you eat all the good stuff early. What's left at the very end? You know, the thing you just, you don't touch until you're like, all right, that's all I got left. I guess I'll eat it. Cause sugar.
Matt Considine (05:50.446)
Oh, that's a great question.
Matt Considine (05:54.956)
It's usually something that's just annoying in your teeth. So what's the like kind of taffy like chocolate that's a roll, Tootsie roll. Tootsie rolls stink.
The Professor (05:59.422)
Mm-mm.
The Professor (06:05.699)
Yeah, yeah, tootsie rolls or like roll rolls with the caramel caramel, however you like to say that. Yeah, tootsie rolls.
Matt Considine (06:12.01)
Yeah, those, those are all off the table for me. I'm picking anything with peanut butter in it first. So Reese's is my jam. And then the rest is just kind of left.
The Professor (06:24.477)
I was thinking like worst ones right black licorice man anybody gives you black licorice hate your hate your world Candy corn like get that out of here. We don't need that at all
Matt Considine (06:30.542)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (06:35.566)
I kind of vibe with candy corn. As a kid, I liked it.
The Professor (06:38.851)
Yeah, you would buy a and if you have you would you in terms of the fact best-selling halloween candy, what did you what could what could you come up with? many could you come up with? We did top 10 best-selling doesn't interpret as his favorite if you want but it is best-selling
Matt Considine (06:50.442)
man, I mean.
Matt Considine (06:56.462)
Yeah, we did already have at the time of this recording a couple goes at this. So I'm going to say Snickers Hershey's Milky. okay. Milky Way Reese's
The Professor (07:07.239)
Hershey's yes.
Nope. Yep, number two.
Matt Considine (07:14.51)
Butterfinger
The Professor (07:16.091)
Yep, number 10.
Matt Considine (07:17.999)
I got the 10. Starburst.
The Professor (07:19.966)
Hershey's Kisses in mini bars were 8-9. Starburst number 5.
Matt Considine (07:26.318)
I'm a Sour Pouch Kids? I don't know. I'm running low. Sour Patches, wow.
The Professor (07:33.295)
Yeah, number three, Sour Patch Kids. I love, I've been chowing down on Sour Patch Kids. You get the combo one that also comes with Sweetest Fish and the Watermelon Sour Patch Kids. Great, bag of candy right there.
Matt Considine (07:44.024)
This is your jam. You are the sweet tooth kid here, man. This is what I miss.
The Professor (07:45.726)
I have a way too much. So you've missed the number one, which when said, you'll be mad that you missed it. I mean, it is probably the most common form of chocolate.
Matt Considine (08:01.71)
I said Hershey's.
The Professor (08:02.941)
Yeah, not quite but the competitor to that one of the most impressive companies Who's over top of them M &Ms Yeah, and it's a great acquired a great acquired Episode that's mars. I believe right mars is over top of a great acquired episode on mars There's also a good one on hershey's then Reese's cup sour patch gets skittles are up there taste the rainbow What's his name? The running back Marshawn Lynch, you know?
Matt Considine (08:13.66)
&Ms. my gosh. Yeah. Why didn't that come to mind?
Matt Considine (08:20.234)
Is it Mars? Yeah.
Matt Considine (08:28.142)
Skittles, yep.
The Professor (08:32.551)
Great great skittles proponent starburst hot tamales We missed those in seven seven seven makes me mad candy corn. It is a big seller though This is by set sales not by is it good or not? Yeah So those top ten Halloween candies and they're probably all gone out of your out of your bowl and what's left are like whoppers and stupid stuff like that
Matt Considine (08:39.01)
Hot tamales, wow, that's a surprise.
Matt Considine (08:45.57)
Yeah, candy corn. Good, good, good way to go candy corn. That's awesome.
Matt Considine (08:59.074)
Yeah. Yeah. My wife had a giant bag of candy. We ran out our first year as homeowners and we overbought like a ridiculous thing. She had a whole bag that she was trying to throw out. And I'm like, wait, does any of this stuff expire? Did we look at the dates on this? And, and sure enough though, all of them had expired dates. And I was like, I don't, I don't think so. I think we could still give this out. I think most people probably are still rolling this out.
The Professor (09:16.295)
does not expire.
The Professor (09:20.956)
man.
The Professor (09:24.583)
Yep.
Matt Considine (09:26.926)
Hey, some new club happenings. Gotta congratulate our new club, Atlanta Club Champions. You weren't there to try to contend this year. Take one big name off the board, but there was plenty of others stacked competition this year at a new venue, by the way. One that I think we may have found our sweet spot. When the team, Nate,
The Professor (09:30.333)
What do we got?
Matt Considine (09:54.52)
Jones, our director of golf proposed it. I wasn't so sure, but after watching the leaderboard during that day and these matches play out and hearing the stories like Bobby Jones golf club golf course, nine hole reversible, massive greens, seven different team grounds. And, we adopted our Chicago club championship strategy where you win the whole, you pick the T.
The Professor (10:07.805)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (10:23.618)
So that opened up tons of strategies this year. I was just so tickled that it was our best year yet for the club championship. So congratulations to Luke Beatty, our gross club champion for Atlanta and Zach Harker for our net club champion in Atlanta. Congrats, gentlemen. The stories were awesome. I loved to hear that Luke, when it came down to how he was picking his tees, he just rotated.
Cause you know, they number their teas there. He just rotated his kids ages on, on HD. So everyone thought he was a mastermind and like, he's definitely picking that tea because he hits a draw. is guys. He's like, no, I just, literally was just making it up based on my kids ages. but, yeah, he, he handled some treachery, dude, it had some teeth. Like Bobby Jones was beating guys up and there was double bogeys galore. So, love some of the pins they put out there for us and
And thanks to the awesome staff there. They really do have a great team. it is a place that is accessible. It's busy. It's well-conditioned. It's so many of the things that we love in the game. thanks to them and congrats to our club champs down in Atlanta. thanks also to our friends at Titleist. You know, I was playing around, I shouldn't do this because I know better to go get fit in person, particularly with the wedges, but
their new Vokey wedge selector online, you know, they're adding tools. don't know if there's AI behind it or not, but it's kind of cool to just see what wedges you should be in to optimize, you know, your game for whether where you're playing, what the course conditions are, you know, what type of loft you appropriately should have for both gapping, but also bounce and the grind. And, I love the personalization of a wedge. feel like it's just.
Maybe the most intimate thing in the bag for that very reason. So you can personalize your wedges over at tidylist.com with their new Vokey Wedge Selector tool. Professor, let's get to this one. You've been itching to dive into this. I'll let you get us started. Let's go.
The Professor (12:28.605)
We're ready.
Well, think we should start. mean scummy midams. No, I think we should start here. Just make it clear because I'm probably going to say some things that would get me in trouble or upset some people. This is no way there's anything to come after this. A shot at an individual person. I'm all for anybody playing by the rules that are currently in place and anybody getting reinstated in the USGA or RNA or whatever is allowing them to do that good on them. Do it. Play where you want to play within the rules that are there. Just like the arm bar with the putter like
Not a personal thing I would ever do. I'm against it and I want to do it myself, but I have no problem with anybody doing that while it's legal by the rules. Like if you want to do it, you think it makes you better by all means do it. So.
Matt Considine (13:09.262)
It's not your partner. You just don't want be associated with it.
The Professor (13:11.591)
Well, you're my team, right? Like it's me, like it's I, like you can't do that when we're playing together because that's I'm on your team, right? That's so, it's a principle that I live by.
Matt Considine (13:14.321)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (13:18.446)
It's a principle that you live by versus a bylaw or a rule, which I'll come back to later.
The Professor (13:24.221)
Yeah, by law, I roll other people like so again in his current setup everybody coming back shout out Chris Wilson good buddy of mine, you know pump the CM and the amateur scene He's gonna kill it and probably possibly win a minimum if he if he actually you know Puts in the time and goes after that good on them for doing that and the rules allowed as of right now So I want to get that out of the way to start that have no problem with what the individuals are doing and the decisions they make Within the spirit, you know what the rules are in their current form. So I think that's important to say
With that said...
I'm just so against the current reinstatement trend. I'm just so, so against and it makes me so what it makes me is like definitely not frustrated to write word and to be clear, like I've given up sort of my mid am trajectory. Like this isn't like I'm bitter because they're taking my spots on that's way behind me at this point. There's no spot there that they're taking of mine. I'm not even close to competing on like the cocktail tour or anything like that. So it's not like a frustration. It's just a sadness to like
Hey, like, it doesn't matter if you're pro or at some point, just come on back, like come on back to the amateur scene. And it just makes me sad that our regulating body, it's just another example of them afraid to do anything, afraid to upset people, to stand up to a small, very small group of people and take a little bit of backlash. And it just makes me sad that it's just another example of like, Hey, we're just going to sit here and allow things to happen.
and not act and make a tough decision. That's where I'll start.
Matt Considine (14:58.604)
Yeah, you're disappointed is the way I feel of you. You're disappointed more of the governing body than you are of the resentment or anger towards these reinstated pros.
The Professor (15:01.659)
Very disappointing.
The Professor (15:11.109)
Yeah, I have no resentment, anger towards any individual reinstated pro and if they can win, like I'm not mad at reinstated pro one, the mid am I'm not mad at all. I have no resentment. Like they were allowed to do it. Get on them to go out and play great golf and win that. Excellent. Right. It's all at the regulating body for me. Every, every potential ounce of ear I have is at the regulating body. Full stop.
Matt Considine (15:14.86)
our region-stated AEM X-TRO.
Matt Considine (15:34.636)
Let me lay out the actual rules around it if we can.
The Professor (15:38.661)
Yeah, that's, that's do how this works because it's changed recently in 20 in the last five years or whatever. so layout, lay out the rules of what it means to be a restated AM, how that works and go about that.
Matt Considine (15:44.812)
Yeah, so this is.
Matt Considine (15:50.486)
It's an ex-professional who's applying to be reinstated for amateur status. So a golfer who has played for money can apply. So it's any money over a thousand dollars, by the way. Yes.
The Professor (16:00.06)
Or a teaching pro too. In a teaching pro too, let's be clear. Teaching pros fall into this reinstatement when we say professionals. We're going to lot of times this episode we're going to be talking about professionals as in playing competitively, know, PGA, TOR, corn failure below. But the reinstatement generally also falls for teaching professionals. They fall in this category.
Matt Considine (16:21.294)
Yeah, your PGA pro who was an assistant at the club or taught lessons out of college and they got out of the business, they sold insurance and now they're back. I'm gonna talk about that too, because I have some strong opinions in that one as well. this is a golfers play for money. I think it's $1,000 was the increased limit that they went to in 22. But there's an application that...
The Professor (16:26.649)
Out of college, never played for professional tournament. Yeah.
Matt Considine (16:50.83)
Once you're not playing for money, it's $200 fee and a waiting period that typically ranges from six months to up to one or two years or more depending on their prior playing record and the more significant your professional accomplishments typically and this is not like this is all still open to the interpretation of the governing body the longer you might wait with some of the cases reaching five plus years, which I
The Professor (17:06.557)
in six months.
Matt Considine (17:20.876)
We know a lot of these guys. think it's interesting you and I, we know both sides of this coin fairly well in our own personal networks. I've never heard of anyone being longer than a year personally. So if you have any accounts of five plus, I'd love to hear them.
The Professor (17:33.275)
Yeah, I can't recall, because...
And to be clear too, the waiting period that's six months to whatever years is from the last date of playing professionally. It's not from your application date. So let's say you get done, let's say you lose your corn fairy card or whatever, right? And then you kind of just middle around for three to six months, know, kind of practicing whatever and like figuring out life, maybe trying something else. And then you're like, okay, like I'm not going to go back to professional. When you apply, they're back dating.
Matt Considine (17:46.796)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
The Professor (18:06.053)
your time span to whenever that last tournament was. So a lot of times, know, a player might apply six months from their last tournament, hence they could get it immediately upon application in such a case.
Matt Considine (18:17.644)
Yeah. And so it's, it really isn't much, I, in my opinion, but during the waiting period, they have to live like an amateur. so no prize money, no playing in pro events and definitely no amateur competitions until, they are reinstated. And so it's, it's, they call it a cooling off period or a lot of people do, to ensure that they're truly done with, professional golf or working as a
The Professor (18:26.653)
That's right.
Matt Considine (18:46.894)
PGA professional. Age and handicap criteria. just for those that aren't familiar, we're going to talk mostly about mid-ams here for certain amateur events like that, the US mid-am. You must be 25 or older and have a handicap index of 3.4 or better. I think this is why I see mid-am competitors often in the late 20s into 40s. That's kind of what we're talking about here. It's meant for
The Professor (18:49.309)
You can be.
Matt Considine (19:17.326)
you when you talk about the 1985 or 83 introduction of the man in itself, its whole mission was around the career amateur and giving more opportunities for them to continue to compete versus, you know, these younger kids that are very clearly destined for professional golf, being an amateur. That is what amateur golf has become at the highest level. And so we were going to be focused in there. Other stuff to maybe set the
uh, background before we get more into it, the NIL era changes, the modernization, that's why they started to, they were being forced to the USDA really in a lot of ways by NCAA and others to do something and make an adjustment. So in 2022, they significantly loosened some of the old restrictions. For example, the minimum waiting period was reduced from that one to two years down to six months.
The Professor (19:59.41)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (20:16.238)
Uh, in most of the cases, just making it faster. Also amateurs could, uh, accept sponsorships through NIL. So they had to adjust for that and, uh, and modernize in a way, uh, so that these. You know, college kids mostly could play in amateur events. So that was a, a portion of it. Uh, if only we had NIL in our day professor, you know, I'd have taken, I'd have taken.
The Professor (20:36.283)
And I think, yeah, I would have accepted Reese's cups, Mountain Dew.
Matt Considine (20:43.455)
more free stuff, a couple car dealerships maybe.
The Professor (20:47.131)
I mean, remember that hot dog I took at the turn one time and I had to work 20 hours of community service for? No, and to be fair, think on NIL front, you know, what the USGA is doing on the NIL front is like, we're just going to look the other way and kick the can down the road. I actually think on the NIL front, that's the right decision because we don't know how NIL is going to shake out over the next 10 years, you know, including just do they become social, do they become...
Matt Considine (20:52.75)
God, that's right. Yes.
The Professor (21:11.239)
Contracts with universities as paid employees. So I think that USGA making any NIL role right now would be that'd be just wasted hot air because In three years that NIL roles could change and they could restructure. So I think they're being smart on just hey NIL We're not gonna count it We're just gonna ignore it for now and let that settle out college the college landscapes gonna have to settle out over the next ten years as You're gonna have labor suits come up and all sorts of different things that are gonna get shaken out in the courts over the next decade
So I think they're smart. I think they're very smart. And that's one I'll give them a round of applause of not acting on the NIL front and just let it shake out.
Matt Considine (21:47.982)
You know, what is it three years ago now, maybe four, when we had Jay Billis on the podcast and he has been so consistent in his message around that. I would encourage people to go back and listen to that. That hold, everything he said to us that three, four years ago has come true. And, and he has been saying that, beaten that drum for 15 years. So that's a pretty good truth teller type of episode of really what's going to pan out potentially there or it has.
The Professor (21:59.454)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (22:12.187)
Yeah, that's right.
Matt Considine (22:17.708)
I did want to touch on a few more of these. I won't read all the other regulations off the hop, but the USDA does still reserve the right to deny reinstatement for anyone. And so there's this subjective nature to it. And they also treat all reinstated AMs like any other AM. Once you get reinstatement, there is no asterisk. There is just, you are now an amateur free to go by all the amateur policies.
The Professor (22:27.069)
with this.
The Professor (22:37.099)
the trip.
Matt Considine (22:47.19)
henceforth so You know the mass majority of these people that were talking about here They were not PGA Tour winners, you know, everyone's directing a lot of heat at Colt Nost around this debate which we'll get into but It is roughly though. This kind of shocked me on my research 700 to 800 annually are Applying for this and so I mean there's a 47 million golfers. That's a huge number but
The Professor (23:07.239)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (23:15.37)
In the world of this mid-AM, every year 700, 800 has felt like a lot more than I expected.
The Professor (23:22.725)
Yeah, yeah, and I wonder how much that's just, you know, kid getting out of college and then trying for six months and money runs out or whatever. And it's like, I need to go back. It'd be interesting to see a breakdown of like what that demographic looks like of that number because that is a large number.
Matt Considine (23:37.772)
I know, speculate, of that 800, how many do you think are mini tour players versus club pros?
The Professor (23:48.832)
versus club pros. I would guess the majority are mini tour players
Matt Considine (23:53.678)
Do think it's close 50-50 or you think it's?
The Professor (23:56.454)
I would think more mini tour players than club pros because there's not a lot of club. There's more people leaving college and trying the mini tour route than there are just people going into the club business. And think a lot of club pros when they get out, you know, they're, they're necessarily looking for competition, you know, and I think we'll get into the reasons, the reasons they, you know, pros want reinstated as amps and it's a purely a competition reason.
Matt Considine (24:24.152)
Yeah, I-
The Professor (24:24.201)
I think a lot of club pros aren't necessarily chomping at that bit the minute they leave the business. they leave the business, they're typically burnout. And most of former club pros that I play with ran into an awesome guy recently at Wild Horse in Nebraska, former assistant pro club pro. And he's just stick. He's hitting bombs, like 290, just gorgeous ball flight off the first tee. me and Mr. Trey Moon and Alvin Vannes are like, And I'm like, six holes in him. Like, you play competitively at all? He's like, no, no.
Just, you know, as a former club rogue got burned out, out of that business and now I just play, so.
Matt Considine (24:59.544)
So I think to that point to your guy there, like they're not getting the headlines. If he plays in anything amateur, people likely aren't gonna bring out the pitchforks. But I think it does educate this debate. And I'll circle back to club pros and teaching pros specifically, because I think it does educate the debate. And it gets back to what is the principle at this? What do we stick into?
The Professor (25:14.683)
Yeah, club pros.
The Professor (25:23.954)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (25:28.268)
regardless of all the other opinions and what we might think of amateur. I think that that population will help come up with the most just solution when it applies to them as well as these MiniTube players and everybody else. But anyways, let's get to like this controversy. So it really heated up around the mid-AM. I actually wasn't tuned in this year.
To it, give us your interpretation professor of the actual 2025 mid-am, which feels to be this flashpoint moment of everyone saying, wait a second, we got too many ex pros playing amateur golf.
The Professor (26:06.511)
Yeah.
I forget the specific number. was something like 13 or 14 or 15 of the final 16, I think, that were in the match play were reinstated AMs. Ended up something like that or a seven in the last eight. Whatever it was. not only that, I think the point you were alluding to there is that group of individuals, I have no problem with reinstatement being a rule. think it should be a thing, allowing reinstated AMs. The rule is there for a good reason.
And there's a group of people like, yeah, that makes sense. Like you went and worked in a pro shop folding shirts for four years and now you're getting done with it and you you're no longer burn out on it. Now you want to get back. I know you wouldn't mind competing somewhere. Okay. Reinstated, you know, you were just a teaching pro. So, Hey, you're back in it. That's, that's fine. but this was the case that this mid am or several of them were high level professional players, you know, really solid professional players that had been out there for several years on the professional circuit. You know,
cutting their teeth and now all of a sudden are at the mid-AM in the final 16 competing for an amateur tournament in one of the most prestigious behind what the US AM and then it probably we could go back and forth the US senior AM versus the US mid-AM what would be the next most prestigious amateur event run by our run by obviously and run by our regulating body.
Matt Considine (27:27.694)
The four ball, obviously. The four ball, obviously, Kevin.
The Professor (27:35.195)
Let's be clear here. This is the tournament that's run by a regulating body that's setting all these roles and I've set the rules around what it means to be an amateur and a pro.
Matt Considine (27:44.948)
And with the most sought after prize in maybe all those events, which is a spot at the Masters.
The Professor (27:54.174)
the spot at the Masters, right? That comes with winning the Mid-Am. Plus everything that leads to in terms of amateur events, the cocktail tour, so on. There's a huge, huge benefit, personal benefit to a person competing in the reward that comes with winning that awesome prize.
Matt Considine (27:57.443)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (28:12.398)
I actually think the masters thing is, some people say it's a distraction, it's not what it should be about, but it's like, of that 800 people filling out that application, I bet you 90 % of them, it's one of the leading dream things. Like we do so much decision making in our life on aspirations. And these are guys who, yes, they dreamed to be professional golfers, but they dreamed about playing in the masters. They dreamed about being there rolling a putt on AT.
The Professor (28:32.701)
Hmm.
Matt Considine (28:42.526)
And, although, you know, that didn't pan out for them, well, they see this as another avenue. Like, yeah, I got a lot of game. I can beat that guy that am that is a insurance salesman or a realtor or a dentist or whatever. And I can, I can do that. So maybe, maybe I should get my status back. Maybe I should get this, this opportunity. I think it is one of the biggest factors that nobody's admitting to that necessarily, but I do think that the master's invite.
for a big portion of these X-Pros is a big motivator.
The Professor (29:16.379)
Yeah, I completely agree. layered on top of that, completely interrelated with it, is just competing at what is a privileged spotlighted event in golf. It shows up on everyone's radar, pro or am. If you're in golf competition, you know of the USGA Mid-Am. That is something that's on your radar. You know about it, you know people that play in it. You know, if you're pro or a high level pro or a high level am, that's on your radar. So of course.
I'm a high level golfer will I want to play in that it's natural for any high level competitive golfer to want to be playing something that people value and acknowledge the champion up so makes complete sense for that.
Matt Considine (29:59.096)
Yeah, yeah, and both of the finalists, so I got some of those other stats from you. Seven of the eight had ex pro careers finally. And then the last two championship match had considerable, you five plus years grinded on many tours and Holtz who won the event. Brandon Holtz, 38 year old. He's a realtor in Illinois now. He won.
And he now has a spot to Augustus. So yeah, it definitely left a bitter taste, I think in a lot of, again, purists, amateur golfers, amateur golf fans perhaps, Bobby Jones disciples, you know, of the, is amateur game? And that's where we are today.
The Professor (30:48.197)
Yeah, and that's you brought up Bobby Jones. Let's touch on the history of the amateur pro distinction in terms of where it comes. Originally, it was primarily a social class distinction. know, amateurism were going in like 1800s, early 1900s was just a social class difference of amateurism was with the wealthy elite group. And then you had the working class individuals that were pros, right? And they were making money from you name it could have been club making, caddying, just
Matt Considine (30:53.91)
Good call.
The Professor (31:15.357)
playing exhibition matches and so on. That was a distinction. was extensively or pretty much exclusively along social class lines and that's why it was there. Now over time that did evolve as golf grew in different ways that did then evolve into a distinction of competition. I'm either going to do this for the love of the game
Or I'm going to do this as a working class person that I should earn money for my skills and I'm going to make that distinction. And then that became the distinction. Hence, Bobby Jones. I'm going to stay an amateur and just I'm here for the love of the game. That's why I play the competition, the Corinthian spirit, if you will, where you just play the love for the game rather than personal glory or money. And I think that's what the, those of us that are traditional. So that's why we hold up Bobby Jones. He sacrificed a lot in terms of
let's just say sacrifice. He made a choice, whatever the motives were to say I'm playing this for the game of golf and that's why I'm playing this.
Matt Considine (32:17.496)
Yeah, he definitely, what a fascinating person, complicated person Bobby Jones was.
The Professor (32:23.001)
very complicated individually. I'm not trying to paint him as this like saint that was just yeah.
Matt Considine (32:28.108)
Right, but I love your point on this was a class distinction. He was an amateur because, and this was the case overseas as well, that whether through the USJ or RNA, you were considered amateur because you were a gentleman, because you came from inheritance that allowed you to be educated, to be traveled, to be a golfer, a member of these upper echelons of society that pros were looked down upon for that.
The Professor (32:45.277)
That's right.
Matt Considine (32:55.904)
You know, and yeah, they were very talented on the game, but, you know, people like old Tom Morris, but prior to, to Bobby really flipped at the other direction. people like Walter Hagan ran with the professional distinction in a totally new direction where it's like, all right, you don't want me in those circles. Guess what? I'm going to be as flashy as you can imagine. I'm going to be as, proficient as you can imagine. I'm going to be this, this bigger than life, type character. And so that it almost like widened.
The Professor (33:08.657)
That's right.
Matt Considine (33:26.102)
the gap though, feel like over time between these two people, two groups, but really they're almost more similar than anybody gives them credit. I, one part, don't know if getting into it now, there might be more historical context we should talk about, but I do think about these people and the ones that go the pro route versus keeping amateur status and.
The Professor (33:37.436)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (33:52.574)
I almost do feel that a lot of amateurs here in the US are more privileged than the majority. There's many privileged people that go the pro route, but they're more privileged than those pros. And they actually have more opportunity and more access to things than those pros do. And so to say that like, well they...
The Professor (34:09.138)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (34:19.82)
Grinded for six years and got the cut their teeth on the pro tour. Well, what the heck did these you know who would want to pick on like the Nathan Smith's and the my gosh, who's our mid-am on the right every Walker Cup? Stu Hagastad like These guys I'm not saying they're good people. It seems like I don't know that well, but they have had every opportunity in the world to you know, due to circumstance
The Professor (34:36.765)
Stewie, yeah, Stewie.
The Professor (34:48.765)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (34:48.782)
to get really stinking good at this game. think of Tony Finau as the absolute opposite of that. Don't think he's getting reinstated for it, but having no opportunities there and making the most of it and needing to make money, turning pro when you're 16, blah, blah, blah. I think that needs to not be lost in this discussion.
The Professor (35:09.885)
Yeah, think, that's to wrap up the history, like over time, the social distinctions have fallen apart in terms of amateur and pro. And if you look in the pro ranks, right, the social distinction, social class wise, you have everybody from not making money, don't come from money, all the way up to extreme wealth. And I'm including all the way from the bottom of the bottom of the mini tours here up to the PGA tour. Obviously, we just focus on the PGA tour in Cornferry. You're going to see more affluence, affluence up there.
than you are across that gamut. But within the entire landscape of pro golf, including the person that's out on the mini tours for 15 years just trying to make it, you can see a nice range of social class within that group. There's nothing glorious about traveling to Hooters Tour, trust me. Matt and I have had friends do it, I've caddied for friends. There's nothing glorious there going on. So that social distinctions change. And certainly with the amateur ranks, you have exactly those few players that we can point to that, hey, those guys aren't...
That's not the working class individual that's out there, you know, teaching from nine to five and then, you know, trying to practice for 30 minutes and take care of the family and now tee it up as an amateur. That's there. think the nuance there is that group in the amateur scene is a pretty small group that have that privilege. Where at the pro scene, all of them, pretty much all those individuals are sharpening their teeth every day. Right? So again, the Ben Am scene, we could say like maybe
Matt Considine (36:31.938)
Hmm.
The Professor (36:35.293)
5 % of the mid-amp scene gets that privilege. Well, at the pro scene, pretty much everyone is busting their tail golfing every day. They're hitting range balls every day. They're practicing every day, playing every day. They are truly grinding their teeth. I think that is the one difference that we can accept at the mid-amp. are that select few that are living a pro life, but by and large, every pro that's grind, a majority of the pros that are grinding are getting to spend a lot of time getting reps in.
I think that's the one nuance that exists there.
Matt Considine (37:04.514)
Yeah, it is. And to just combine my thought with yours, it's closer to this reinstatement period, meaning, you know, if it's only six months from the last event or it's only one month, they are fresh off of that constant grind. Whereas these, what we used to call professional midams, which now we can't anymore because of these ex pros who are midams. But what we used to call with those individuals who
Again, either because of inheritance or wealth or flexibility of their schedule, they
The Professor (37:40.988)
And it could be they built up a job like that now makes money for him. You also have case I'll keep people nameless. I know one individual that is called a professional mid am that it was his good amateur golf that led to people within his career saying, hey, we've got a lot of money. We're just going to support your amateur career. And so he was afforded the ability by other people to essentially sponsoring him to play more golf too. So he did earn that through his amateur play when he was also holding down jobs.
Matt Considine (37:43.82)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (38:10.412)
Yeah. And, and, and I guess, I guess where I was going with that is like those years of, of, opportunity to get really stinking good at golf for these guys that go on to be real AMS never turn pro. it's, it is much younger. It does get more impractical if you will, to be the guy at the end of the range, you know, beat balls every single day, sharpening your tool sets and not play for money. It kind of seems crazy actually, when you think about it. Right. And so,
The Professor (38:26.919)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (38:37.073)
Yeah. Yeah.
Matt Considine (38:40.666)
That's what I'm saying is like, it's just, there's a proximity. They're very similar potentially, but at different times in life. And those pros are much closer to the reinstatement period when they're cutting their teeth.
The Professor (38:46.685)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (38:52.997)
Yeah, I think that's a great point. Because then they, for me, this whole debate in terms of why, what's the difference here is just the reps you get as a pro. reps are irreplaceable in anything you do. Your job, a sport, reps are reps and they're irreplaceable and ask any professional in any sport, they'll tell you the reps never leave you.
Right there. They're always there. Barring the yips, know, the Ian Baker Finch yips or something like that. The reps never leave you. And that's the big difference here where for me creates an uneven playing field when certain people are reinstated because of the reps that they're afforded. And again, they're often working hard, not making any money, losing money. So it's not about I'm saying, they've lived this privileged life. That's just been perfect. Whatever. No, it's you.
put you made a choice to be professional to play for money to play for personal glory and money and you did some number of reps for that that can never be replicated by an amateur or it's unlikely to be replicated by an amateur especially a young amateur.
Matt Considine (40:11.064)
I know you're so good at promoting the, what you call the steel man argument. And I'm trying my best right there to, to, steal man your argument, but I want to straw man it because like, sounds like just based on opportunity that they have more opportunity to be proficient at the game of golf. That that is the piece that you take issue with that because of that opportunity, they shouldn't.
The Professor (40:18.311)
Yeah, want to know, want to, yeah, what I have.
Matt Considine (40:40.556)
be given this status back.
The Professor (40:43.045)
Yeah, I mean, and I think yes now not in a blanket statement. I think there is a line to be drawn. What that line is. I don't know. I think that would be it's a hard. It's a hard line to draw. Like that's why it's easier speaking absolutes. But you know if you went down to Florida and we're on the sunshine tour for six months and missed every cut like. That's totally different than you were out on the corn fairy tour. Top 10 in it traveling on that.
And now all of a sudden you get to come back and get am status. Like I think those are fundamentally different things. There's one thing of like, I'm going to give this professional thing a try versus I was a pro. And again, that's where it makes it hard to actually draw a line because that's just completely nuanced and subjective of what that difference is. But I think everybody would admit those are two very different individuals and their implications for their ability to compete on the amateur circuit is very different. And for me, this goes all back to principle and you know, I speak about principle a lot.
There was a principal difference between amateur and pro. Amateur, you're choosing to play for it for the love of the game. Pro, I've committed to playing this as a profession for personal glory and money, and I'm putting in the effort to do that because it is my job. Hence, I'm putting in all these reps or whatever. I'm not putting in those reps at the sacrifice of something else. They are my job. They are my responsibility to do. So think that's the distinction that has to be held up somewhere.
Right. And I think we've slipped too far to where it's like, can have corn fairy wins and have been out there 10 years and then you can just come on back, you know, within a year or two. And that's where that's just such an uneven playing field. Cause that person has reps that other people don't have. And they made a decision to be a pro with the understanding that sacrifices the amateur circuit. And when you check that box, that's a consequence that should be there that you're accepting.
Matt Considine (42:15.052)
Yeah, you
The Professor (42:43.463)
For the rest of my life, I'm playing professional events. And that's what I'm gonna do.
Matt Considine (42:50.7)
Yeah, man, it really...
because that amateur principle or what is an amateur playing for the love of game and not money. It sounds a lot like the Ryder Cup debate of should these players get paid for the Ryder Cup when its principle was always about, you know, love of your country and representing a team and the fellowship of the sport. It was a celebration of that. Now, you know, that's gone. That ship is just so different with the amount of money that's
in it, but that's what's interesting here is there's not money in this mid-amry and statement. There's not a, yes, the USGA is televising these events. There's ad dollars. I would like to get a snapshot of that because when you debate things like this in our capitalist society, usually they just say, follow the money. The money will tell you what the key motivator is and the reality of, you know, we could talk about principles all day long and not that
The Professor (43:30.449)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (43:47.569)
Right, yes.
Matt Considine (43:56.258)
There aren't principled decisions being made. Hopefully they're very much are, but money is a massive driver of so many of these things. So I don't know what that, you know, side of this looks like. That might be another fun research project, but it's interesting that we're not talking about these people getting reinstated for that. We're talking about them getting reinstated for likely the love of the game, Kevin, like, you know, the stuff you said.
Not talking about the guys that, well, whether we're talking about the guys who won on the corn fairy tour or the guys that struggled for five years on the Hooters tour, to say they don't love the game the same way as a lifelong amateur I think is not accurate. They are looking, some of these guys are truly looking to fall back in love with the game and they're trying, I think they're using this as an avenue to do it.
The Professor (44:52.029)
And that's where this is my favorite talking point that gets brought up. Like the most recent minute, what am I supposed to do? Where am I supposed to play? Like, you know, like, no, sorry, right there is actually a walking contradiction. You're not doing this for love of the game. You're doing this for your own ego. Here's why. You've got plenty of places to play. You can go play in the section events. You can go play in state, the state opens. There's billions of professional, you can go play on the sunshine tour. There are billions of places to play as a pro.
Matt Considine (45:07.554)
you
The Professor (45:20.765)
but it's your ego saying, need the one that gives me notoriety. I need the one people look at. So I want the mid-amp, because I want to stand up there and get my master's invite, have people see me win and applaud me. And that's why I need this, right? Because you cannot tell me there aren't places for you to play, because there are plenty of places for you to play and compete. So I think that that love of the game argument they make, no, that's the love of myself and wanting to win something I'm proud of winning. They're saying I'm not proud of winning that state open.
Matt Considine (45:32.206)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (45:50.172)
because my sights were on the corn fairy and I never won up there. So I'm not proud, but I'll be proud enough to go win over here because that's the top amateur event. So that's the one I need to play in. So I can say I won the top amateur event. So I think that's a bad argument that they're making. And they're not actually thinking about the underlying logic of that argument relative to the landscapes that's out there because there are plenty of professional events to play in across the state, across the region and across the nation that they could play in. If you know,
Matt Considine (46:12.075)
Interesting.
The Professor (46:19.015)
for the love of the game. If it was actually for love of the game, they wouldn't have problem teeing it up and they stayed open. That would still move the needle if it was truly for the love of the game. Because if you're playing for the love of the game, doesn't matter if you're playing your Saturday knucklehead, everybody's getting strokes, or I'm playing for the Masters win. If it's truly for the love of the game, those are all equal.
Matt Considine (46:37.568)
I like your steel. There's a steel man there for sure, because you're right. There are other events available to them and we're not talking about those. think that'll come when we get to the very end. I'm going to try to withhold my final recommendation. I'm going to remember that of of there is places to play and rekindle that that love of the game. We're not, you know, keeping you out of these away from a golf course or
away from joining your local club or golf society and, you know, go and add it there. But there, there is a restriction to these biggies potentially. So I like that there. we talk about Colt Nost?
The Professor (47:21.221)
Yeah, let's do it. Yeah.
Matt Considine (47:22.862)
So this is where I did not know he said this. I've been really good professor. I have not been on lot of screens and social media. So I feel like a little bit of a novice to this discussion. But when you had said that he had reinstated or applied for reinstatement, I thought about it. It was a little personal to me. He actually spent some time as a kid in Northeast Ohio. We had the same swing coach, a guy named Mark Phelps.
And, out in Ravenna. So it's kind of funny. Like we learned the swing from the same guy likely. and in our early formative years, he moved away after that. And then I, played with him one time in college, which was awesome. Cause he was a hell of a player, obviously USAM winner. yeah, just.
The Professor (48:05.917)
amazing player and good mind. Good mind. I love love his voice like yeah, I'll tune in and talk to him all the time like yeah.
Matt Considine (48:10.028)
Yeah, good voice in the game, but it feels like he's hugely controversial because he actually won, you know, tour events and, he, yeah, like he's at the top of this. You were talking KFT tour, like this dude won on tour and earned $4 million probably makes a lot of good money now as a broadcaster. and, and so I think, but for his perspective, and I think this highlights this love of the game piece to it, like,
The Professor (48:19.761)
Yeah, what are we doing here?
The Professor (48:26.119)
Yeah, what are we doing?
Matt Considine (48:39.094)
He really when you I heard him on the telecast for the am out at where he won, which was California help me out All the big hills sloping in san francisco
The Professor (48:42.395)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (48:48.433)
The Professor (48:53.188)
hard.
Matt Considine (48:54.766)
No, not a heart park. Olympic. Thank you. Olympic club. He won there. He was on telecast. You can just tell this guy does love amateur golf too. He, he has such a personal experience competing as an amateur. And so like that love, think for him, he's getting all this fire about reinstated and, and I think there's some sincerity to, know, he mentioned wanting to captain a Walker cup team. was a part of our cup teams. talks about,
The Professor (48:56.541)
Olympic.
Matt Considine (49:24.346)
you know, just, just being an Amigin in a way that I feel like there's some sincerity. So where do you, where do we draw the line in your world where you're talking about these guys that have all this opportunity, all these reps, is, is there a line and, and where is it?
The Professor (49:37.819)
Yeah.
The Professor (49:42.621)
I think he's a great example of like, yes, the sincerity is real. 100%, he's 100 % authentic. And he should feel that way, right?
but actions have consequences. Like your decisions have to carry. You decided to go pro, you went off and won pro events. Like yeah, like of course you're gonna be drawn to like, man, if I could go back and play in the am again, I could do, he should feel that way. And it's awesome to watch him talk about that, right? And you can see, you hear the emotion in his voice and what that would mean. But guess what? By doing that, you're diluting what you're hold propping up. Like you're diluting that tournament. If, yeah, I can go win a PGA event and now I'm just gonna go back and go.
play in USAM and potentially win it. You've diluted what that tournament is supposed to represent by doing that. So again, it goes back to, well, where am I supposed to play? Like this love is not an external love for actually that thing. It's a love for my involvement and my ability to participate in it. That's the true love that's driving that there. I want to have those feelings again. I want to have those emotions again. I want to watch that 31-year-old that never turned pro win this and go through the emotions of winning the USAM.
It's like, no, I want to experience that. And you're just diluting in that case. Now your question.
Matt Considine (50:55.446)
Is there something to be said about the people you're surrounded by in these events that you are amongst other amateurs versus your club pros and other mini tour players? Like is that the attraction as well?
The Professor (51:13.499)
I think it should be for that event, right? It should be.
Matt Considine (51:15.392)
Or is that, is that ego driven because they feel they can beat the amateurs versus beating the, the mini tour guys.
The Professor (51:24.773)
I mean, certainly you want to enter any tournament, you want some level of competition like to occur, right? And not go in thinking like, there's 10 people I can't beat because of that. And so I'm not going to act like that's a potential thing now with the people that are there. And that's just like, we like to be involved in community. You know, that's just human nature and being in community where we're all somewhat close to being equal and whatever, whatever we're doing. Now, I think is it like my decision ego driven here? I've already said like that career is over for me. So
But I look at it as a principal decision. The principles of why that tournament is what it is, why that tournament is great is not because you're there and you've got, former PGA Tour winner over here, former corn fairy winner over here. And there's the guy that was the, you know, is truly an insurance salesman. That tournament's great. And again, I'm accepting that there are a few professional AMs and MNAMs now. The MNAM specifically is great is because you literally have someone as a high school teacher there that
you know, got in through their qualifier and made it and now they get to be there with 256 or whatever number of people and play in that event. And so again, that's why I use the word diluting because we're diluting that the more we allow reinstated pros to come back in to your question of where the lines draw. And that's a whole episode in of itself is like, where do we, you know, is that like, you've been on the corn fairy. Once you're there, you're no longer there. you want on the
you know, Latin America tour, like that's the disqualifier, you know, where does that is it a number of years? I do think that's where it gets very sticky. And I'll sit here and be a podcaster and not give the actual solution but raise the problem because that's what we do.
Matt Considine (53:03.121)
no, we're going to force solutions here by the end of this.
The Professor (53:05.669)
I mean, I do think there is a way like certainly if you've won the corn, if you won on the corn fair, your PGA tour, like that's an automatic disqualifier in my book. That means you're at the top of the top level as a pro. You're cutting your teeth. You're getting sponsorships and reps that just are truly irreplaceable. and that, you know, we can, we, think we could start with easy disqualifier, then work back into the sticking ground of like the number of years is problematic because
Man, if you were just down on the Florida tour, maybe you were working a job and you just randomly teed it up in three professional events every year. Is that a problem, right? Where you weren't sharpening your teeth and week in, week out, traveling, whatever. I think that's where it gets more sticky where number of years doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense. Maybe it's a dollars earned sort of number within a certain time period. I don't know.
Matt Considine (53:55.862)
We'll get to, we get to the proposals, you know, at the end of what you try to bring together all your thoughts and like, here's what I would do, you know, presenting. We'll get there in a bit, but I did want to ask one other question, which, and I'll use the example of Nick Dunlop to preface it. You know, he has, there's this blurry line with NIL. He had great NIL deals going into that PGA tour when he
The Professor (54:23.93)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (54:24.386)
would have won a million bucks or 1.5 or something. I can't remember what it was when he won it, PJ West, but it's kind of funny. It's like, all right, he's flying a private jet. He's got an IL deals in six figures already. He's got agents. He's playing college golf. He's playing in the USA and he's playing on the walk. What is an amateur? Like what the heck? What are we even talking about here? So what is an amateur?
The Professor (54:35.837)
Yeah.
The Professor (54:45.383)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, the NIL thing and what is an amateur. I think Nico, Dr. Darius has one of the best solutions where we have this, it's a new group of professionals, professional AMs or whatever, right? That there is this new category that takes into account the college kids, especially the NIL kids, the reinstated pros, that you would have this sort of new emerging category and set of tournaments around.
And maybe the cocktail tour evolves into that. Like that's what it becomes. And then you've got this lower tier tour that's now all just like strictly am ams where you've never checked the box and you never accepted NIL money. You know, maybe you end up with something like that. think everything's long-term solution, right? Like this is going to shake out over 25 years. I think that is one of the most viable, you know, solutions to this.
Matt Considine (55:39.054)
Well, and there's another group, I don't know this, but the, you know, there's the internet invitational and you got the good, good guys. Some of these guys could, yeah, they were ex pros, but let's forget them being ex pros for a second and just say they are playing for a million bucks right now. They're professional, you know, that's, that's, they're out, right? They can't sign up for any amateur events. Correct? I mean, it's.
The Professor (55:57.073)
Yeah.
The Professor (56:04.669)
Yeah, the people I mean we went through this with golf blueprint like You know, we went to the USGA and said like does this Does this categorize us as making money as professionals? So what we're doing, you know feeling like that's a real thing like if you're a YouTube golfer Making tons of money off your YouTube channel What does that count because like you're getting I Don't think it does right like if
Matt Considine (56:16.673)
Matt Considine (56:26.424)
Do we know the answer to that?
Matt Considine (56:32.814)
If you're making it off your content and it's like your job or your base basis for income, but when you're actually teeing it up to play for a million dollars, which they are on that, that's clearly, yeah, yeah, that's clearly a violation. if you're earning, but that's another really blurry line. Like what the heck is an amateur?
The Professor (56:36.038)
It's.
The Professor (56:42.585)
Yeah, then then that's that's that's that's clearly a violation.
The Professor (56:55.803)
Well, that I think that yeah, because that's like in the overall spirit. Should that violate it? It's like, I don't know. Like you're not playing to me. Like this conversation is very much just focused on the professional golfer. All right. Not necessarily like, are you accepting a paycheck in a tournament? like what's if you're a professional golfer and you've done that for so long, or you've made so much money doing that and whatever that's afforded, then there's a line that needs to be drawn somewhere that reinstatement.
can, should not happen because again, I go back to you just diluting what those amateur tournaments are supposed to be in terms of who's supposed to be there. And again, I'm accepting that there are professional amateurs that are already diluting it, but levels exist here, right? We, everything exists on a spectrum and we have to draw the line somewhere. You don't go, well that's happening. So we'll ignore it. Like, no, you have to draw, you draw a line somewhere. And again, that goes back. Regularly bodies should make people mad. They should make decisions that make people mad. A good regulating body does. And unfortunately,
Ours is they're not doing it.
Matt Considine (57:57.678)
Yeah. Yeah.
It might take us some time to get to our final approval. So maybe we should get there now and spend the rest of the show just kind of getting to a still discussing and debating, but getting to a potential solution. Like if you want on the PGA tour, think you both, both of us feel like you're out.
The Professor (58:22.203)
I think that's an easy one. If you've won on the PGA tour, you know that's given you a certain opportunity and what you've done before that probably as a pro that it's just an uneven playing field after that.
Matt Considine (58:34.99)
I also almost feel like this is just a feeling. I haven't given this much thought, but like a Nick Dunlop winning on the PGA tour as an amateur, you're also done. Like you're not a, you're not an am anymore. You played, you won. Uh, if you don't take the money, but you're flying on a jet, you just got to move on.
The Professor (58:49.029)
What if you stay in though? Yeah, what if you stay in though? Like what if you're just like...
Matt Considine (58:56.142)
Well, like, again, back to we don't know what an am even is.
The Professor (58:59.417)
Yeah, yeah, and that's what it all goes to. That's why there's no easy solution here and it's.
Matt Considine (59:02.79)
And, like, and, and I'll, I'll take this and pick on Stuart Haggis dad. One thing I've always felt watching, you know, we all as mid-ans will aspire to be a Stuart Haggis dad for ever. Right. He's the, he's the bar. The guy's playing in, in water cups. He's taken down titles. mean, that's really frigging hard to do at any, but he's also in a, I'm not saying the guy hasn't worked hard. You have to, to be that good, but
The Professor (59:14.779)
Here's the goat.
The Professor (59:19.985)
is amazing.
Matt Considine (59:28.68)
He's in the position to do it. It's like, I want those guys out too. want like, do we have to break it down to like the time available? You have to work in a profession or you have to have the least amount of time possible. It's only for teachers, plumbers, like.
The Professor (59:45.928)
Are you going, are you going big brother here and you gotta like have your, you've got the USGA sends you a device and you log your entire day and your entire year. if we cry, if you cross over at any point in the year, this number of hours dedicated to golf, you're done.
Matt Considine (59:59.81)
Well, if I was picking up, if I was picking apart your opportunity and reps debate, that's exactly what I would say. I would say that that Stu and some others, there's a, a insurance company in the middle of Illinois that has all the best mid amps. Why? I don't think these guys are paid to work. I think they're paid to play golf every single day and, they do, and they're stinking really good. Is that fair? Cause they have more opportunity than.
The Professor (01:00:04.655)
I mean that is, yeah that is the...
Matt Considine (01:00:28.878)
someone who is a school teacher or raising six kids or whatever. It's an impossible debate to have. That's why I think the opportunity piece really breaks down quickly because there isn't that much difference between those guys and these mini tour pros, except they might have more stable income working for this insurance company.
The Professor (01:00:41.103)
Right.
The Professor (01:00:52.505)
Yeah. And I think that's, yeah, it's an, it's impossible to track all that. And at the same time, like that's just life. Some people have more opportunity and no matter what venture we're in, right. Then then other people to get better and hone their hone their skillset, like Bill Gates will get his, you know, fortunate circumstances when he was coming along that just made him ended up being, you know, one Korean, one of the biggest companies in the world. So then a day, me personally, I'm just going to accept
that's the case. And I do think the easiest answer, it's not the one that's going to be loved is once you've decided to make golf your profession to earn a paycheck and a job, it's just done. you've been so I so here's my spin on that why I think I would actually be okay with that. Again, with pure empathy for the person that gets into it and then six months later is like, oh, this is wrong. Like that's very sad, very sad for them, right? In terms of like they can't just like
hit a reset and maybe we allow us six months to a one year window like okay you maybe get 18 months let's say like you make you check that box you have 18 months to reverse that decision once you're past that so maybe we set that in place a certain time period but it's a freaking sport we're talking about it's a hobby it's a game it's whatever like you make a decision and you're gonna have to think hard now so people are gonna really think do I actually want to try to go pro or would I be happy to stay in amateur and like
Working a job, they're actually going to have to make that's going to be a hard decision for them, which I think could make the even the mini tour game stronger because now like the people committing to it are going to be the people committing to it. Uh, and having to make a really strong decision that has severe consequences that like, Hey, within the next 18 months, if I don't retract that, I will be a pro forever and I can't play in the amateur stuff. I think that's the easiest aspect decision. It's a little bit heartless.
Matt Considine (01:02:43.342)
Nothing.
The Professor (01:02:47.207)
But that's, again, ignoring the fact there's plenty of pro tournaments to play in. And that would actually create more pro tournaments at the regional and state level because you'd have this group that can't go back. So you could have country clubs saying, I'm going to host a pro tournament. You could have things like that. They're not going to able to pay very much. But guess what? The people going back to amp status, they're not getting paid anyway. So they can't use that as an argument not to play in it. Like, it's not going to pay me enough to play in it. No, like that would just all shake out over time. So I think that's the easiest decision.
that at the end of the day, it creates a role, it preserves, it follows the principles of why those roles were there in the first place. And that's why I like, you know, the 18 month or whatever, give that wiggle room for that person that gets in and it's like, this is too hard. I don't have the finances to do this. Like, yeah, chasing that pro thing is really expensive. And I'd rather go work, it allows for that group as well.
Matt Considine (01:03:41.612)
Yeah, the until you just raised that point, did I realize I've been a beneficiary of this myself of a reinstated am ex professional, my last four ball partner that we qualify him and I, putter Johnson, good childhood friend of mine, grew up with lot of the same opportunities, lot of the same time spent on the golf course, getting good at the game and, what did I got through?
without him. Now he was a professional for almost a year in Florida, many tours, didn't make a whole lot of cuts, know, reinstated and then didn't play golf for two, three, four five years. By the time, know, we had nobody even, that's why I don't even think about it. Like I forget about that timeframe as well. And that would be to me, cause I know, you know, the joy he gets out, he is
The Professor (01:04:15.558)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (01:04:24.785)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (01:04:39.264)
Every bit as an am as anybody, even though he spent a year as a pro. I, I can't get on board with that. I just can't for guys like him and, and others who make that decision out of, as a young person, we all make bad decisions as young person. mean, would you tell somebody who, decided to go into investment banking and that they could never become an artist? You know, would you tell somebody that decided to,
The Professor (01:05:05.318)
Yeah. And that's why.
Matt Considine (01:05:09.342)
be a school teacher that they can't get into finance and business. Like I don't know. I don't, know this not apples to apples is probably a terrible metaphor, but.
The Professor (01:05:18.171)
Yeah, it's definitely definitely terrible. would hate. No, that's why I like but to that point, like that's where I think a good runway of like maybe it's a 24 month runway, 18 month where and they know that's there as soon as they play in that first event that starts that clock and now they have to think hard about it. Because again, it's not apples apples because you're talking about career changes. Yeah, change careers. That's why I'm here. We're talking about a silly game that you know, just trying to again the governing body's job is to preserve the competitive field just like it's no different.
then when you're playing in a group and it's your job to carry out the rules of golf, that's your job as a competitor to protect the field, the governing body is to set it up so the fields preserve some principles, that those fields have some identity to them. That's where I think we've just slipped too far to where in the next five to 10 years, as this stays a thing, that mid-am field is going to lose. It's not a mid-am event anymore. It's just not in terms of its original principles, why it was developed.
It won't be that anymore and we'll have completely lost that. So preserve it at least a little bit more and set those up. Because again, we're not taking away their ability to play golf. That group, they can go play in plenty of other places. And if they love the game, they would be just fine with that.
Matt Considine (01:06:32.792)
Yeah, I think my solution if I was gonna try to boil it down is this cooling off period needs to have restrictions in it and even after re-instating. So there's the cooling off period, then there's a reinstatement period. And I think there needs to be a reinstatement period. And I think there needs to be real clear.
limitations even after you're in AM. So it's a little bit of Dr. Doris's new group theory, but based on that criteria of what most are probably saying, keep them out, I think I'm in favor of get them in, but you can't play in the mid-AM. You can't play in your state mid-AM. You can't play, like you can spell out, it's not that many events that we would be talking about here.
And to your point earlier, there's a whole lot of others playing the state open. Can't take the money as now that you're in AMP, but you can play in a state open. You can play in your section events. You can play in, in, many tours. you want, you can't take the money, but I think that's an interesting cocktail events could have their own.
The Professor (01:07:48.53)
The cocktail events could choose. mean, the cocktail events can shoot. can they can choose their own policy of like, yeah, we will allow the read. I like that we will allow the reinstated group. And again, that goes back to I'm on board with this. The governing body is saying no in our events is going to be strictly purely AMS forever AMS with understanding. Yeah, there's some sketchy forever AMS. But no, I can I could sign I could go sign on that.
Matt Considine (01:08:12.686)
So it's a, at a high level, it's, hey, you, they all do still have to be reviewed individually, but you played six years on the mini tours, you won once on the corn fairy, you're gonna be reinstated in a year, two years maybe. After that, you're gonna have another three years of this category of amateur. You're gonna have an asterisk.
You can't play in the mid-amp for three years. You can't play in your state amateur for three years. You can play in your state open. You can play on the cocktail circuit if those events want to extend you an invite. You can play a lot of other places, but you can't go for these crown jewels of amateurism because that's like an extension of the cooling off period. Like to call six months of cooling off period is hilarious.
The Professor (01:09:07.505)
Yeah, it is. Yeah.
Matt Considine (01:09:09.774)
Like you don't lose everything in six months, but over three, four years of having to just be hit with life in most cases, that to me, I would be happy for a Brandon Holtz who took five to six years where he never was able to try to qualify for a mid-am. Getting in, playing well.
The Professor (01:09:20.487)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (01:09:37.656)
beaten my ass and winning it. I would not have any hard feelings against him, but without that, I will.
The Professor (01:09:39.879)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (01:09:45.138)
Yeah, I could definitely co-sign that. think at least, you know, it's maybe not as strong as a decision as I would go with in terms of, you know, like what I was outlining or whatever. But I could co-sign with that and I would be, I would applaud a regulating body that just stood up and said, hey, we're going to do something that we know will be divisive and accept that that's the case and realize like this is a silly game we play and we should favor preserving principles over the
individual empathy we might have for singular people.
Matt Considine (01:10:18.956)
I love it. think a couple of final hypotheticals. Do you think we'll see any of these reinstated mid-amps turn pro again?
The Professor (01:10:29.371)
I mean, it's it's happened. I mean, John, how many times did John Peterson go back and forth? Like again, it's a perfect example. Like here, let me pose this out. Alright guys played double a ball as whole, you know, for 10 years and now you're going to come let him tee it up on your. Your county team like he's going to come in and be the pitcher on the county team. No, they would never. We would never let this happen. We would never let that person be restated and be in like.
Matt Considine (01:10:33.55)
that's right.
Matt Considine (01:10:55.628)
I actually know it's funny you say that Roy Hobbs league adult baseball. got a neighbor who played in the world series of Roy Hobbs, like amateur baseball. And he was citing on the other team. There was some like, it wasn't Jose Canseco, but it was a name like that. Like it was hilarious on this other team. He's like, you're telling me I'm, Carlos Bayer ago Cleveland, a former guardian was, was on it.
The Professor (01:11:13.423)
Yeah, it's like this that person should not
The Professor (01:11:21.391)
No business being out there doing that, right?
Matt Considine (01:11:24.364)
Yeah, that's funny. What if like Phil or Tiger just decided to reinstate?
The Professor (01:11:31.065)
I'm all in. Bring back. I will allow Phil and Tiger for the spectacle. just like they moved the needle and I'd want to watch. I will throw out everything I said to this whole episode. If, if Tiger and Phil both, if they both do it, I need both of them say, we want to come back as ams. will throw everything I said out the window and be like, open up the flood gates. Anybody can come back. Cause I want to see them play.
Matt Considine (01:11:55.118)
You've also worked with lot of college players, younger guys who are contending for the US amateur. Do you see any of these reinstated mid-ams being able to compete for a US amateur?
The Professor (01:12:07.355)
Yeah, I think certainly the reinstate ones that they're getting in right now with some of the pro careers they have and all that there's a maturity level that still exists that you develop through your twenties. That they'll have a slight advantage in that that's shrinking every year, right? The college kids are playing really, really smart and they're learning to play smarter. What they don't what a lot of them haven't necessarily developed yet. Even the best ones are just the number of different shots, right? Even all the way down to.
you know, a wedge with no spin, know, neutral face wedge. they still, even the top ones I'm seeing don't have the same repertoire as like someone that's been out in the pro ranks for five years and learned from other pros and different things to do and different circumstances. Um, so I still think so, but in probability wise, the college kids are so much better than they used to be learning so much quicker. There are so many good ones that like at the USA level,
they could win the next 25 college kids could and I wouldn't be surprised like it just they're that good. There's enough of them. Now I don't think that's going to happen but there certainly are enough of them that they're they're playing great and I think you're gonna see at the mid am now you know you'll see reinstated people as well as just the people have turned 25 you know just turned to 24 25 26 years old get in that thing and they just come right on there and they're just gonna win the mid am right out of the gate you know within their first couple years I think we're probably gonna see more of that.
There's also just the nature of the game right now, the speed you need, what you need your body to be able to do. just privileges the 15 year old to kind of the 27, 28 year old. It just privileges them right now and their ability to rebuild and recover from workouts and training and all that.
Matt Considine (01:13:52.85)
I know there's a lot of amateur aspiring amateur golfers that listen to the show and knuckleheads like us who occasionally tee it up and try to do these things. My closing message, I think, well, let me ask this question first. Will the USGA do anything?
The Professor (01:14:13.053)
I'm gonna get myself in trouble with some of the people to use J that I know and love but like I just I've lost so much confidence in their ability to do anything in terms of Regulating the game. I think their focus is elsewhere in terms of what they think their mission is You know, think they're they see their mission is carrying out these tournaments Certainly and doing a great job which shows what the US Open absolutely and these events are so spectacularly ran They do an amazing job if you ever get to play in one of these or participate that
They shout out USGA 100 % kudos you guys do an awesome job and executing these events You know, they're doing some stuff now with courses and history and that sort of stuff, too I think they they look at their attention there and actually creating rules by which to govern the game I just don't think I just don't think they see that as their pertinent mission right now and probably one of those situations you have two main people in the room you got 12 people in the room trying to discuss these things where you really need one to three people, know, so what the rule be
Okay, here it is. Because once you end up with more than that, you talk yourself into a corner and you come up with bad, bad stuff.
Matt Considine (01:15:18.444)
Yeah, the principles Like I don't even know this. I would have to go to the government bodies. I know there's mission statements. I hope there's core values, you know things that When we talk about clubs so much on this podcast and so many of these difficult decisions and clubs trying to modernize Become much more simple when the the the mission statement was very clear the the the goals and
The Professor (01:15:44.604)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (01:15:46.958)
you know, the constitution of those clubs was laid out in a way that said, well, these are the principles that we hold onto. And I don't know what we're talking about here really fits into a principle that is now and always has been held by the USGA and the RNA. I don't know that for certain, right? I feel like there's been different waves of different groups of people that have been at the helm of these places that probably felt their principles were
The Professor (01:16:04.475)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Matt Considine (01:16:16.098)
different. And so you do need leadership to say, okay, are we establishing a principle here or which is a much more difficult thing to do? Or are we able to rely on those original principles to say, no, I know this is unpopular decision, but our mission and our principles are why we make it. And, I don't know if they're able to say that. I just think everyone wants them to be right. You can't be right, but you can be principled.
The Professor (01:16:40.413)
Yeah, and certainly the growing the game is, know, a big initiative of theirs and all that. And there's times where I'm sorry, but your principles are going to dictate decisions that are going to counter that. But again, this you've brought up capitalism at one point, just you know, American society is about growth and more and more and more and more. And they're definitely of that mindset. And certainly, definitely the solution I proposed and several things I believe in and side with and believe should have done.
would possibly and probably not grow the game and might actually result in, know, diminished participation over time in terms of just absolute numbers. Now, I think diversity within the game could increase with some of these decisions that I've brought up in the past. But yeah, I'll never claim to be mindful of like, is this going to bring in additional revenue and profits and grow apps numbers? Absolutely. That's not something I think about, but that's something they obviously are thinking about in a lot of ways.
And so I think that's maybe their core principle in a lot of cases.
Matt Considine (01:17:37.853)
I think.
Matt Considine (01:17:41.4)
The, the shrink the game crowd, think is also misguided. If I'm being fair, I think there's, there's not a scarcity of this. Like, yeah, we can't build a ton more golf courses. Actually we can. We were going to do a whole episode about that in the unused, farm Meadowlands of America. Like there's, there's going to be, yeah, the next one to you and I are going to leave the charge, but, it, it, it, does. It is about principle.
The Professor (01:17:50.365)
Yeah.
The Professor (01:18:01.788)
the next frontier for golf.
Matt Considine (01:18:10.158)
and what those guiding motivations are. And again, I feel like you can't be right in this argument, but you can be principled and they have to decide what that is. Well, and you brought up from my free market crowd out there, and this is what I was gonna end us with, all those listening that are lifelong amateur golfers, the purest form of the game. Some of these reinstated guys, you know,
The Professor (01:18:21.362)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (01:18:38.968)
They're just raising the bar. Like get your game in order. Iron sharpens iron. Yeah. Let's just go. you're, if I do get paired up, you and I against a couple of corn fairytour bros, let's go at it, man. It's four ball. We can make a couple of doubles. We can still throw birdies at them. I think there is the, there is a silent, maybe a loud minority of guys that are looking at this as like taking away from theirs. Hey.
The Professor (01:18:44.768)
Quit that job and put in the time.
The Professor (01:18:56.923)
We'll get in their heads.
Matt Considine (01:19:08.664)
Go hit some balls, go work on the game. Nothing is guaranteed here for these guys.
The Professor (01:19:13.883)
Yeah, and I think it's a blast to compete against them. That's why I say why they allow it. Come on back, get reinstated. It's fun to tee up against those guys and, you know, see how great their golf is. That's a fun thing to do and see if you can take them down.
Matt Considine (01:19:27.074)
Yeah, well, this was, love taking, like you said, a silly game and taking it very seriously as we sometimes can and trying to think through these things. It's such a reflection of so many other things in life and decisions we make, but I enjoyed this discussion, Professor. Hopefully everyone listening did too.
The Professor (01:19:52.657)
It was very cathartic for me and needed to get that out.
Matt Considine (01:19:56.406)
We can tell there are some things you had to get out of shy and you did and you did. So thanks everybody for listening. Hey, if you're not a subscriber to our podcast, please do wherever you listen. That helps us a lot. I found out to have you as a subscriber of our show. You can also like rate review. That's awesome. And it supports honestly our mission at new club. It's not about attacking or defending reinstated names.
It's really about making the game more meaningful. And for those who truly love it, we don't care if you're pro or am, that's what we do at New Club. So this show helps support us do that. And if you want to connect with the professor of me or any of the guests that we have on, you can check out all those details in the show notes. The backdrop and New Club Golf Society are in partnership with Titleist. And can check out all their stuff, including those Vokey wedges, over at Titleist.com.
Check you on the next one.
