Matt Considine (00:01.792)
Welcome to the New Club Bag Drop Untold Stories in Golf. I'm your host, Matt Considine, founder of New Club here with my dear friend and co-host, the professor, Professor Slantja. Good morning. How are you?
The Professor (00:17.518)
It's been a long time. You know, I had to come back on lots been going on life. Life is life. Sometimes I've every fast has been busy, but you know, I pivot, I pose this as we can get you on here to talk about a pretty special course and recent golf round you got to play. But really it's just completely self motivating that I've been wanting to talk about scummy mid-ams for a while. And, uh, and get on that. know we're, probably do a full up. We're probably going to do a full episode on this at some point. We've got some special guests that we'll bring on. Um,
Matt Considine (00:37.408)
Yeah, boy, let the people know. Tell them what's going on, Professor.
The Professor (00:47.352)
But man, scummy, a lot of scummy mid-ams out there. way, way too many of them.
Matt Considine (00:52.456)
Okay, I know what you're talking You're talking about the reinstated mid-amps. Is that what you're referencing here? The guys that were tour pros, Key AFT. By the way, I Brendan Todd won your club championship at Athens. Congrats to BT.
The Professor (00:59.253)
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
He did. our stance there is, at least mine is, like I've definitely promoted them plain, like the best members should win your club championship, like the pros. I'll full credit the Brendan Todd and Chris Kirk, as well as Michael Cromie and a couple others. They're very active members. They're up there at their families all the time. Probably more so than I am and Claire are. So I was actually, I think in that case, like it's not an amateur tournament, like I'm glad they're there. And I'm proud to say Brendan Todd is our club champion. mean, why wouldn't you be?
proud to say, you your best player is your club champion in that case. So you congrats to Brendan. Great, great individual him. And he's just every time he had a chance to talk with him, he's great, great conversationalist, one of the best trash talkers in the golf course as well.
Matt Considine (01:38.208)
I like that. I actually like that.
Matt Considine (01:50.708)
Let's get him on the pod to re recap his club championship. I, I thought, so I, I thought you were going to talk about a different amateur, event you're talking about reinstated AMS. So all those guys that are dominating the, the us mid and we can, we can make a pot about it. I'm happy to, but I'm insulted because I thought you were going in a much more optimistic direction.
The Professor (01:54.134)
We should do that. We might actually appreciate that.
Matt Considine (02:15.516)
With the breaking news, the professor, I have finally beaten him down. He and I are teaming up for the U S four ball qualifier a month from today, I believe, or so here we go, baby. The guy I've been looking for him. This is the motivation I needed. how's your game? Are you ready? What's our strategy? That's w do we need to talk?
The Professor (02:27.672)
think it is, yeah, just about that, yeah.
The Professor (02:37.69)
I mean, I don't know. I haven't been playing enough golf. I to get on it. You give me a hard time, but you're the one that turned down the Sweeten's Cove member guest invite this year. So just let's have that on the record.
Matt Considine (02:48.02)
I know I was waiting for the big dog. I have learned I'm a maybe not the best amateur individual golfer, but I'm a hell of a four ball player. So I need to have someone I can ride to get us to the ship. That's the only thing I've played in before. And we're going to have a blast. I can't wait. We can talk about more as we lead up to it. We maybe do via recap, but being able to play high level competitive golf is
is a challenge. It's not always as fun as a new club match or the other stuff that we might do in the game, but it's a great challenge and being able to do it with a dear friend does make it really, really fun. So I can't wait, man.
The Professor (03:33.837)
Yeah, and the best and I think one of the best formats in golf, you know, maybe I'd argue all shot, you know, over over this, but to do USGA four ball qualifier and be, you know, maybe playing for something bigger and getting into the four ball event, the four ball event would be excellent. I did do my little tune up in the monthly medal this past weekend. So that was, that was fun to do. And I guess we'll see where the game's at when we teed up on that. think it's on a Monday, right? That we get that we tee it up.
Matt Considine (03:59.712)
It's a Monday now. I'll, uh, let me get your thoughts on some personal, uh, adjustments leading into this. This is probably going to worry the hell out of you. I early, late September, I went back to my college putter. You might remember old. Yes. The Cali edition. It's a soft feel. comes off, but here's the, the, the dilemma. And I would love your take.
The Professor (04:08.526)
Uh oh, we're already doing priority in person. that's what we got.
The Professor (04:18.421)
okay.
Yes, yeah. yeah, you putted great with that.
The Professor (04:27.406)
You don't have the armlock cheat? You're not cheating?
Matt Considine (04:31.572)
So here's the deal. I went to the Armlock because when my putting is off, I identified it was primarily alignment based, right? What I loved about the Armlock is that it gives you that reference point that really helps me with alignment, particularly inside 10 feet, but even outside of that. And so what happened though throughout this year was,
The Professor (04:43.202)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (05:00.872)
Alignment I think was was fine, but my feel and pace has You know been subpar it needed improvement so I went back to that college Potter that I always just you know saw it rolled it and and tried to break some of the habits I've maybe produced through the arm bar through just this time and and Feel and pace came back, but I gotta say my alignment is still
The Professor (05:08.13)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (05:30.496)
A nightmare and so I I just need to find this balance as your partner I hope we can work through this you might be able to shift me in one direction or the other. What do I do next? What's the next play?
The Professor (05:40.655)
I mean, I think I would, I would, I would think I would appreciate you not ethically cheating with the arm lock and go with the, the traditionalist to college putter and just, know, putting some time on a putting mirror and get the alignment sorted out and figure out all that, you know, make sure you're matching up what you're seeing with where the ball's going. I think I'd prefer, I think maybe there's stars of a line a little bit here. I've, you know, I sidelined my college putter. Um, you know, it's been in the bag since 2001 when JR and I
traded it illegally and on the 10th T box of a qualifier and I've had it ever since and I put it back in the bag. I took it out of the bag for maybe six months recently. Longest has ever been on a bag and I just put it back in this weekend. Now I might have a putter coming from three DP by the time the tournament gets rolled around and if that comes in, I might have to the game that cause we gamed it out on the Nebraska trip and it was phenomenal. Um, but Hey, maybe both of us will be putting with the
college putters and maybe putting like we did in college when that's we're you know, two of the best putters out there.
Matt Considine (06:41.696)
If you and I, if you and I putted like we put in college, we're moving on, baby. We're going to the next, the next round. Uh, and, and sincere ad read here to wrap up our intro. Um, our friends at Titus had a lot to do with this. They listened to this pod. know that the professor and I have on, uh, a variety of different players. we're always commenting on, uh, on the games, but, uh, they were really helpful this past year when we were out in California to encourage us.
The Professor (06:45.73)
Yeah, it's.
Matt Considine (07:11.54)
to put our gear and ourselves to the test. And so from that spawned, know, my re-entry after five years into some amateur events and being able to now do this with my co-host and dear friend, Titleist will be through the bag and that's definitely gonna give us a fighting chance with the GTs, the T-Series. And I'm gonna end with this one based on my foibles, the all new alignment.
Pro V1 and Pro V1X golf balls designed to improve your confidence, aim and accuracy. They got three different versions of it out now. You can customize them a bit to, to, to put what you want to see down at the ball. So I'll be playing around with those leading up to November 17th in our four ball qualifier. But thanks to our friends at Titleist for supporting the backdrop and new club golf society. Professor, let's talk about place. That's pretty cool. Let's get on the show.
The Professor (07:42.227)
yeah.
The Professor (08:09.196)
I'm... let's do it.
Matt Considine (08:13.172)
All right. We did this, the other direction. One time the professor had a, a call it a bucket list, call it a, a very meaningful golf course that he was able to get to this past year. And I, obviously talked to my friend about that experience. And then we ended up jumping on the podcast to, ask him direct questions about sand Hills golf club, one of our more downloaded episodes this year. due to some circumstances, I had a late minute edition.
to go do the same at a place that I've been wanting to play for quite a while and always aspired to play, which is Crystal Downs Golf Club, Frankfurt, Michigan, just outside of Traverse City, just a place that I knew from my most favorite and beloved places to play the game on earth that Crystal Downs was gonna be special, something that I really wasn't gonna force and get to, but.
circumstances presented themselves this past year and I was able to do it. So of course the professor flipped it back on me. He goes, that's, that's gets you on and we'll talk about it for those who, who aspire to play these places, right? Or are just curious about the experience at these hallowed grounds, these, these elite venues that frankly not that many people get to see.
The Professor (09:30.318)
Yeah, I think, you know, something that's common to both me and you is that we're not bucket list checkers. But we do have our white whales. These are the places, you know, we really hope to play before we die. And both of us share crystal downs on that list. So I know was super excited when you texted me, you know, and again, it was a last minute invite for you. And you're like, Hey, I think I'm going up here in a couple of days and going to make this work. uh, mean, out of both jealousy and just anticipation, being able to hear your experience. I've been looking forward to this episode.
Cause I also think Crystal Downston, tell me if you agree with this or not. When we think about the premier elite clubs by that meaning the places everybody wants to play. I think a lot of people gravitate to what Augustin, like what come the, I'll go, let's go ping pong back and forth Augustin national. People would commonly say that. What else do you think?
Matt Considine (10:20.38)
that people aspire to play? Cypress Point. Pine Valley.
The Professor (10:21.834)
Just like yeah, golf. Yeah, general golfer, country club golfer, Cypress point, right? I'll go. Shinica.
Matt Considine (10:28.628)
The old course.
The Professor (10:29.9)
Yeah. And so I think we'd go actually decent ways until people would say Crystal Downs, where I think those in the golf world, like the golf golf world would put Crystal Downs probably top five most lists, right? have what? National golf links, Augusta, Pine Valley, Cypress. You're probably getting close to Crystal Downs right there and then in terms of like the golf sicko. So I think it's one of the cool things about Crystal Downs is it is still like, it is one of the most elite golf courses in the world in the United States.
but exists in this little category that's still a bit of a golf sicko area where I've asked like the standard country club person, they've crystal downs, they might not even be on their radar. So maybe we'll not that they need exposure, maybe we'll give them some exposure through this too, with some, some people.
Matt Considine (11:10.25)
That's interesting.
Matt Considine (11:15.232)
Yeah, because it does fall top 10 on some lists. I think number 11 on top 100 golf courses now. And that's interesting you say that because you're right in that 10, even though I don't consider myself to be the biggest list checker, but in that 10, it's it's up there higher than at least five of them. And I think a lot of it has to do with past experience, right? Feelings that I'm trying to chase. Alistair Mackenzie.
The Professor (11:42.67)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (11:44.744)
It represents a feeling I've had in my life a few times over now. And the old course is the pinnacle. Yes, maybe the history, but also just the principles of that layout and how it's the most replicated version of golf the world over. And Alisson McKenzie's affinity and understanding of it was higher than most. And he built these places that I then got to go play.
LaHinch being my favorite course on the planet in the West coast of Ireland. And so when I became smarter about these things and where he was and read some of his books, being a midwesterner has a lot to do with this as well. You know, what does it mean to have a real, taken care for Alistair McKenzie golf course in my Midwestern backyard? You know, I think that's another reason it was high up there for me. but there's definitely a feeling that I'm chasing.
The Professor (12:16.31)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (12:43.624)
that frankly Mr. McKenzie delivers on for me. Passe tiempo, the year prior was that for me, same thing. So yeah, we all have to have a why. Why inconvenience my wife? Why inconvenience my business to take a day flight to spend and get up there for this? I think those are the reasons why for me.
The Professor (12:48.088)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (13:10.958)
Alright, so let's get to the golf but before we even get to the course I want to start us I want to start you telling us about the drive to Crystal Downs. So for those not familiar it's in northern Michigan Which is way up there if you were to drive it from Akron, how many hours would that be? I don't know six seven to get all the way up there Yeah, and you flew up to Traverse City or which?
Matt Considine (13:30.558)
Yeah, about seven.
I did a little puddle jumper for 30 minute flight to Detroit at a 30 minute flight to Traverse City.
The Professor (13:40.495)
All right. So it is one of the most beautiful parts of the country. arguably the world. mean, it's just gorgeous up in Northern Michigan. So I've always wondered what does the drive look like driving up through Northern Michigan and heading the chorus pain is a picture of, you, cause you're, get off that plane and was he said Traverse city? Is that where the, would have flown you to the puddle jumper from Detroit. So you get off that obviously your anticipation is at a hundred talks about that drive from the airport.
Matt Considine (13:59.488)
That's right. Yep.
Matt Considine (14:05.137)
That's right.
The Professor (14:07.384)
coming up to the club, you know, what's that like that part of the country and what's your anticipation like?
Matt Considine (14:10.944)
It's it's Cherry Capital Airport, by the way. And if you've ever been to Northern Michigan in the summertime, you know fully why it's called the Cherry Capital. Literally, the Michiganders put cherries in everything. You can get deodorant with cherries in it at the airport. They must produce so many damn cherries in the peak season. just figure out, what else can we put it in? Can we just start dropping this thing and...
The Professor (14:37.422)
I'll do like a thousand cherry festivals up there too. Like every little stoplight town has a cherry festival.
Matt Considine (14:42.462)
They too. And they're good, I will say. I haven't had a bad cherry from Northern Michigan. Yeah, that drive-in is, I mean, Northern Michigan overall, the landforms is what I think about the sprawling long drives of dune-like structures, sand dunes. If you're a golf nerd and you drive anywhere in Northern Michigan, you are seeing golf course after golf course after golf, know, everywhere. And I think for Crystal specifically,
Did you go through Sleeping Bear Dunes, Kevin, the national park up near this area?
The Professor (15:20.27)
That's right, we did that for your bachelor party, right? We went, these are the famous dunes. mean, they're, are they hundreds of feet in terms of like right on the coast?
Matt Considine (15:28.479)
All I remember is it takes you like 35, 40 minutes to get down. so big. It's a huge, huge sand dune, but it's near this area. frankly, it just felt like driving into a national park, which was a really cool feeling. just both the ecology of the surrounding area and things like, there's no sign.
I figured we went in the wrong entrance. was like, okay, there hadn't been some sign. I mean, we always talk about the subtler, the sign or the smaller the sign, the bigger the reputation of the club. Well, how about no sign? What does that say about, no, I don't think there's a sign. I could be correct. Someone might correct us on that, but I just think it reinforces the idea that like the best places don't need it. They're not showy. They know what they are. very comfortable with what they are.
The Professor (16:06.318)
So literally no sign.
Yeah.
Matt Considine (16:21.726)
But that drive in, it's these winding roads and there's some, a real estate community in there, not right on the golf course, although there are some holes, which I can talk to on that back night that have some beautiful homes, but there's just this winding road that you take with ups and downs and very modest homes that then you pop out and you see up on this.
this ridge up on the bluff, the tiniest little clubhouse you've ever seen. And you're like, okay, let's go.
The Professor (16:57.686)
So yeah, what does the clubhouse look like? I'm coming in completely blind to this. So no pain. That's an image.
Matt Considine (17:03.144)
I'll keep making some, well, I'm remembering things as we go here. So the parking lot, I loved the, it was busy. It was a summer day, you know, late August and you might as well have been at Champion Hill by the base of the parking lot. Yeah, there's some nice cars, but there was also your Hondas and whatnot on gravel parking spread out around.
The Professor (17:27.202)
So, Champion Hill built by the family. One's a former teacher south of there by hour, hour 45. Just a great public golf course, amazing public golf course.
Matt Considine (17:36.222)
Yeah, just they call it the, the, the people's crystal downs. It's, it's similar land. It's just down the road. 40, 40 bucks for 18 holes. Exactly. And, and, that, kind of carried all the way up to the clubhouse because, know, you had, really, kind, excited college kids. I would assume they are working at the bag stand. saw, you know, push carts out.
The Professor (17:43.694)
cost you 35, 35 bucks, 40 bucks, whatever, yeah.
Matt Considine (18:04.992)
and it didn't have that top 10 golf club, elite-ness feel to it. It felt very welcoming is where I'm going with this, but everything from this, the parking lot to that. Now you knew you're there for golf, there's all the little cues. You could tell this is a place for lovers of the game of golf.
The Professor (18:26.774)
Yeah, this is a golf club, right? In terms of amenities, that sort of stuff. Like you're there to golf and that's what you're there to do.
Matt Considine (18:33.854)
Yeah. And I, I remember those college kids so well because I just felt their excitement. Like I almost could pick up on their passion and their gratitude to be there working and, almost their excitement for me to be there playing. And I saw them before and after, one young woman was a college golfer and we had a really fun chat after the round talking about different holes and they, they just, that's a good feel. It was still summer, obviously. So if you're there,
in the fall time, I'm sure the college kids peace out, but that was neat.
The Professor (19:03.15)
I imagine it like this is a summer club too, in terms of its history, Crystal Downs, like this isn't a year round club or even nine month club, predominantly the members of players, they're vacationing there for the summer, living there in the summer, that sort of situation.
Matt Considine (19:19.228)
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think for most of its existence, it operated as a vacationers golf club. You know, we've had a number of people on this show, Mike DeVries, Tom Doak, who grew up there, due to family and also working there being those college kids. And I think that was what was also so cool is remember talking into Mike about his experiences there on this show. saw Mike in those kids and I, and I kept thinking,
The Professor (19:44.834)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm, that's cool.
Matt Considine (19:49.328)
Which one of these two are going to go on to build world-class golf courses because of their time here, you know, it's stuff like that was crossing my mind and it just it felt like a A place that was small yet so big in the golf universe because of that influence expanding elsewhere and but but it definitely speaks to your vacation a destination spot, you know, unlike your cypresses and your pine valleys and your marians and your oakmonds, I think this
The Professor (19:54.2)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (20:18.09)
this has maybe endured the test of time because of the seasonality of Northern Michigan. It's a short golf season because you have a culture of people coming for vacation and not necessarily impressing business contacts or their everyday day in day out club. Like maybe that's a part of the preservation effort that took place here. Money has a lot to do with that too. They probably didn't have the
extraneous budget that so many clubs have because of that seasonality and that type of member, destination type member. But there's also adds to the welcomingness and people seem to be happy to be there, but more at ease because I think they're mostly on vacation, most of them. And that's a cool vibe to it as well.
The Professor (21:07.278)
Hmm.
The Professor (21:11.192)
So did the welcome this field, did you feel like a guest at all? Or was it more just welcome? This is a relaxed atmosphere. You know, you're here to play golf. Great. Or did you feel like a guest?
Matt Considine (21:22.456)
I, yeah, anytime you're going somewhere, you're, you're a conscious guest, right? So you, you, you yourself should be making your conscientious about representing your host. Well, all that for sure. But yeah, from interactions and just everything else. No, I don't feel like there was a line drawn for anybody else, there. And I, I felt like my interactions were very much the same as our, our member.
The Professor (21:29.824)
Yeah, certainly you're trying to be on good behavior and like you're, yeah, you're, paying attention to what you should be doing.
Matt Considine (21:51.722)
for the day with whether that be other members or staff or other guests. And yeah, that too is a unique thing now that I think about it. That sometimes you go a place and it's just so clear, you know, who members are and who guests are. I couldn't tell you that here. I just couldn't. And that's a neat element, I guess.
The Professor (22:13.506)
Yeah. Good, side story. I'll keep the person nameless, but one of our dear friends, one of my dearest friends in golf, he made the point. we recently, we're traveling together and ended up place where, you know, the, the, person asks, you know, what can I do for you? And it's like, that statement right away. They, they know you're a guest. Like they, they, for sure. And they, made sure the, put that little guest pin right on you by asking that question. And we're like, we are definitely feeling like we're guest route.
Matt Considine (22:39.38)
Well, and you mentioned the clubhouse, which I didn't really answer your question. It's such a minimalist clubhouse. It's not a trailer by any means, like many of the places that we love, but it's this old, I guess you'd say English style cottage, know, perched on a bluff, a bluff, if you don't know, it's like up a massive landform and it has kind of a valley on top. You're high up, but there's this valley and that's why wind plays such a big deal there. But it's this kind of
The Professor (22:59.874)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (23:08.254)
rock bass to the cottage and just so timeless, but so minimalist, so restrained, and it fits the course so well, I felt. But also, when things are that minimalist, when things are that right in front of you, it's almost, the expectation is so clear. Like, how do you screw that up?
The Professor (23:32.654)
Hmm. Hmm.
Matt Considine (23:32.66)
Whereas if I go to like a gaudy giant clubhouse with all these things and places to go, you know, that's where you get those questions. What would it help you with? If you can't figure it out at this minimalist little building, you can see exactly where the, you can stand in the center of that place and see everything you need, both out the windows and inside. And so I think that takes a lot of, it almost helps the host so much at these places. It takes a lot of pressure off of them because anybody with
a minimal golf IQ could walk into Crystal Downs and know exactly where to be.
The Professor (24:06.07)
Yeah, it's kind of like we've used to comparison to grandma's house is what you want a country club to feel like or the club house itself because there's no reason to criticize it. It is what it is. You know where everything's at and just say, enjoy grandma's house. you know, I'm an infrastructure build-out guy. We'll talk to inside the club house. What are we looking at in terms of different rooms, dining rooms, locker rooms, simulator rooms? I mean, read an article recently about the
sauna, the red light therapy and all that. And know, all the country clubs are going to install those that compete because they got to add more members because you know, country clubs of business and we got to just grow, grow, grow. Cause that's make that makes a lot of sense. But so what do we got in masseuse? What do we, I mean,
Matt Considine (24:42.034)
Right, right. Yeah, no is short answers. No, none of that. Low ceilings, old wood, a scent that I would buy as a candle, whatever the scent is in there, but it's, but it's old. The carpets, I would imagine seventies maybe-ish timeframe and low ceilings, they use every square inch of the Pro Shop.
in creative ways with nails up on the wood beam to hold or tacks tacks up on the wood beam to hold hats. things like that. did, you know, get there and I look out towards the windows. look at the front nine and I, Kevin literally thought it was a painting. a window standing, standing 12 feet in front of me, I thought, you could buy that painting, but it was just a window in the pro shop. So that speaks to the day that we had.
The Professor (25:28.174)
Through the window, okay.
Matt Considine (25:38.888)
and kind of that sunlight hitting it at the right time. I think also that dining area took me back and it was five or six tables, again, a busy day, maybe a server. Yeah, there was one server, but very simple menu. Gotta have cherries, of course. So every sandwich had cherries loaded in it. But again, minimalist. Just not a lot of customization, not nothing. And I thought what was so cool was I...
I'm sure there was very powerful people at those five or six tables, titans of industry, know, folks that are and aren't, but every table cleaned their own table and took their baskets to the trash. They busted their own table. And I just thought as a cultural DNA thing, that's a little observation I made that that's a club that cares for itself. It cares for its club.
The Professor (26:20.226)
So bus, bus there on table.
The Professor (26:31.958)
Yeah. Yeah. The reeks of the ethos of leave things better than, you know, they were when you got there.
Matt Considine (26:40.504)
I did overhear a conversation with their golf staff that I also enjoyed around handicaps for an upcoming event. they were doing the old, well, we call it the buzz cut. And I could tell that they were making adjustments based on somebody's recent member guest experience, likely a guest, obviously. But I thought that was also cool. It was out in the open. It wasn't like a closed door conversation. Members could hear it just as.
The Professor (26:47.982)
Okay, what's the dirt?
Matt Considine (27:08.798)
Well, as the guest, they also said they also felt very comfortable in just trying to get it right. You know, it wasn't like a, didn't sound like a political conversation, which again, these are the little observations that I, you and I have become students of this stuff just because we care about communities and golf. And, and I just had another sense from that. this is a club that knows itself.
The Professor (27:09.378)
Good. Members should hear it,
The Professor (27:15.246)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (27:33.679)
All right. We've got a limited runway today and we need to get to the, get to the golf course. but I want to start with the first tee. don't, I don't know about you, but I always have, when I'm getting into play a course I've been anticipating and really wanting to play the first tee jitters are more for me and that then say even like a tournament, even a high pressure tournament. So walk us, walk us up. You're walking to the first tee. Where's your mindset at? What are you seeing? What are you, what are you feeling? What's that like?
Matt Considine (27:37.76)
Let's do it.
Matt Considine (28:00.574)
Yeah, there's it may be one of the more scenic, one scenic clubhouse setting. you're warming up. there's a small range you got to go all the way around to, and we hit a few balls there, but then there's a putting green right by the clubhouse up on the bluff. And then you got to go back kind of through the parking lot to get to the, the, the back tee going down one and, huge elevation adjustment from one tee to one green.
And so you get to be, you get to hit that big towering drive and see it sail off with Crystal Lake in the background. So it is, yeah, the nerves were kind of there, you know, we're not playing for anything. We're going to have a friendly match between the four of us, but it, you had nerves because you know, you're at somewhere special and you're looking out at that, at that setting. I also noticed, and this was throughout the day, think seasonality had a lot to play with this, but.
I want to know more about the ecology efforts at Crystal Downs because I have never, Professor, seen more butterflies, more pollinators, more caterpillars. It's kind of sad, kind of weird, but I killed two caterpillars on my first hole there and I felt like that was a terrible sign for the day. I did stick my eight iron to three feet above the hole and almost three-putted, but it was just thriving.
with wildlife, deer, and you name it. Someone did tell a story about a black bear that showed up on the back nine, not too many days prior. So we were gingerly looking for balls if we needed to on that side. But I think that's another piece I now look for in golf courses is this barometer of the, of the ecosystem. It just tells me it's a place I want to be when I see those things.
The Professor (29:49.932)
Hmm
Matt Considine (29:57.716)
And it's just, for me, it adds the experience. It's an incredibly beautiful walk through a lot of native stuff, a lot of native grasses and plants and monarch butterflies. I don't think I've seen a monarch butterfly in a long time and I saw five that day.
The Professor (30:08.078)
Huh, yeah. Yeah, I'm just thinking how often you see butterflies these days. What other courses can you think of anything off the of your head and courses that stand out in that way? the scenery, the nature, the animals, that reminds you of it?
Matt Considine (30:13.909)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (30:24.288)
My head goes international to my favorite McKenzie, which is Lhing. And they have, I know very well, I've studied a lot of their, I've talked to their ecologist. I'd love to have them on some time, that's the place I thought of.
The Professor (30:41.214)
Hmm. Yeah, I was thinking of nowhere comparable, I'm sure, in terms of the just overall abundance, but Rivermont and their issues too with the pollinators and you're, and then, you're, you know, what probably would be considered city Atlanta course, but you don't feel like it when you're on property because of all the different growth that they have in terms of bees to plants and everything.
Matt Considine (31:04.564)
the tons of tons of natural, touches out there. one thing back to that, I don't know what you'd want to call it, but that egalitarian or, just, something you wouldn't assume you'd see at a club of this stature based on us cultural club things, ball washers on every single tee that cracked me up. Like same ball washer at my Muni down the street. They have it on every tee.
The Professor (31:28.236)
Yeah, you mentioned that. I'm like, I don't know how I feel about that. Because I've always been like, man, if I'm my own club, there's gonna be nothing on the T's like it's gonna be bare bones possible. The most simple T markers, maybe a plate, you know, that's it. But I'm like, maybe there's an argument for the old school ball washers. That's yeah. Did you did you use one?
Matt Considine (31:47.828)
Yeah. Yeah. yeah. Yeah. Nope. If you're going to put it out there, I, I'm not one of those guys. I, I always forget to water my towel too. So I need the ball washer.
The Professor (31:59.267)
That is, yeah, same. right, did it live up to the hype? You know, you've been talking about this golf course for a long, long time. So again, I was so excited when you got the invite and that you were able to make it happen that last minute. You know, build up something like that. Did it register?
Matt Considine (32:19.21)
So on number 10, the other guest in the group, a guy from Chicago, we met for the first time that morning. And on number 10, we're walking down the right side of the fairway together and he looks at me and he just remarks, every time I've looked over at you for the last two hours, you've just been smiling or like even chuckling because you love this shit, don't you?
And I said, yeah, I really do. I love this place. don't know if it's my own history with McKenzie that's overwhelming me here, or it's just the place itself, but I'm really enjoying this. And I couldn't tell you what I shot, Kevin. I really couldn't. We had a nice match. They closed us out on 17. Kind of a...
I think a little controversial hole actually. Some people think it's the best hole at the downs. I think it might be the worst, but it's a short four, a very severe short four. There was just a completeness of the course, a complete golf course, golf experience that for me lived up to the hype and left me wondering why isn't it higher on some of these ranking lists.
The Professor (33:46.187)
Is there anything more complimentary for a host to see than exactly what you just described? If you think like, certainly you've hosted plenty of rounds at great golf courses, include the Bev and someone can come off and they can be poetic and wax on and on. But to me, what you just described is the ultimate compliment as a host of seeing that.
Matt Considine (34:07.124)
I want to tell one quick story about my host, if you don't mind. And I forgot to clear this stuff with him, so I won't say names, but you know, you get on the topic. Right. No, he, we got on the topic. We talked about new club, course, throughout the day and accessibility challenges in golf and asked how did you become a member of the downs?
The Professor (34:10.796)
Yes, please do.
The Professor (34:16.147)
Yeah, you got to play the course. You don't need that anymore.
Matt Considine (34:35.228)
And he was a legacy member. His grandma and grandpa were one of those vacationers that would come up for a while. And then they ended up permanently living about, yeah, right on Crystal Lake, which was not the biggest affluent lake. So I think the year he said was 1973. His grandfather was a big fisherman. Obviously he would fish right on the lake or go out to the big lake, Michigan, right there as well. And his grandma took up golf.
And she was driving, you know, I don't think the champion Hills or pine crops of the world were built yet. So wherever she was driving was like 40 minutes to go hit balls and play golf. And her husband said in 1973, well, what about that place? Like we can see it. It's up the hill. It's up the bluff. And she goes, yeah, you're right. So she walks up there in 1973, knocks on the pro shop door, same, you know, old, a hundred year old, same place.
The Professor (35:31.214)
Same house.
Matt Considine (35:33.436)
I said to Dorian, I'd like to play golf. And whoever it was, head pro, director of golf said, great, ma'am, we're a private club. However, you would have to be a member of the club to play. And she said, well, that sounds good. How much is membership? And I don't remember the exact dollar amount. I should have wrote it down, but that day she basically wrote a check. A couple hundred bucks, a couple hundred bucks.
The Professor (35:56.975)
probably hundreds, just a couple hundred bucks. You're someone like a price, something like that. Yeah. So obviously that's a couple thousand, you know, in today's world, all dollars or whatever. it's still a significant amount.
Matt Considine (36:01.92)
in 1973 and so Crystal Downs wasn't.
Matt Considine (36:08.922)
And, so years later, that's why I was invited and able to play. And I think this wasn't lost on my host by any stretch of the imagination. He is a, has a lot of reverence for sports in general, what sports does for people. and, and probably wouldn't self-proclaim himself a golfer, although there's a lot of golf game there. but I think he, carries that,
with his intentions and why I think he gets joy out of someone like me enjoying my day there or the little things that the club does. And that is rare, more rare today than it should be. But we also talked a lot about why these things have happened, why clubs have become so inaccessible, Crystal Downs included, and a lot of it makes sense from an economic...
The Professor (36:49.666)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (37:03.444)
perspective from a cultural perspective, it's no mystery, but it does show the need for where is that woman today walking, knocking to become a part of a community. And I just used it as fuel for my vocation. What I've decided to commit my life, my working life to is building new club to be that club for people that love the game.
The Professor (37:30.327)
Hmm.
Matt Considine (37:32.36)
And yeah, without owning land is maybe one of the elements that has to happen for this to, to still give people a community so that their grandkids can enjoy being a part of a club and a community to play golf with as well.
The Professor (37:47.715)
Yeah, that's an excellent point because you know, obviously we rail on a lot of aspects of the US golf culture, but we certainly, I don't think ever are implying it's irrational or illogical what's occurred, that it is completely rational and logical. Because something rational is rational and logical doesn't mean it's the right decision or doesn't mean it needs to be the only decision that's there. So what a cool full circle story. think it also the way our little actions that it can occur.
just their long-term, you call it the butterfly effect or ripple effect that occur. Um, just because looking at that, yeah, go up to that house, go up to that house. You know, the fact, the pro did say, well, you know, offered a membership there rather than just get members only gate at the front where she may have never got past that gate to begin with, uh, just being able to go have the conversation. So, so cool story. want to circle back on the completeness idea. You need to talk about just complete course.
Picking that apart, is there anything that stood out particularly about the golf course that just really blew you away? know, the routing, the landforms, the green sites, just the way the holes flowed together and told a story. Anything that just really stuck with you? I always have that moment pulling out of the parking lot where something jumps in my head and is like, yeah, that was it right there.
Matt Considine (39:03.04)
I would say, hmm, yeah, it's a good, the flow of the golf course is what stood out to me, which is a component or is an end product of all the things you probably just mentioned, know, routing, variety, the use of the slopes. There's so much land movement, Kevin. It's a...
The Professor (39:27.83)
Yeah, severe contours throughout, right?
Matt Considine (39:31.292)
And I've heard one of the best knocks on Crystal Downs is that it's too hard and that higher handicappers do get eviscerated. Their greens were firm, they were fast, and there's a lot of gravity at work on those, on that bluff. The wind on the front nine, the elements play particularly on the front nine because it sits in the bluff that T shot down into the
kind of rolling waves of those dunes, but you're in a bit of a valley and the wind just whips through off Lake Michigan into Crystal Lake. It's a thinking man's golf course. That was a quote I found Fred Muller. believe he was one of the early founders, promoters of the club. A thinking person's golf course was totally what I left with because yeah, you can't...
The Professor (40:23.064)
Okay.
Matt Considine (40:30.89)
Fall asleep out there. mean, it's a bit of an adrenaline rush really because every shot requires so many considerations and it's the perfect replay place having to play there once was difficult because I just couldn't stop thinking about my adjustments to how I would play it again and speaking to other members other people that have had the fortune of playing there multiple times That's on a daily by daily basis the afternoon winds shift
the course condition shift. There's so many different things to consider and I love courses that do that.
The Professor (41:06.722)
Yeah. Do you feel like, is it a type of place that you could play 36 in one day or is the difficulty and like you mentioned is a tough course. Does that exhaust you a little bit? Like even if you're super excited and you're like want to play 36, it's just like, okay, that's it's a test. so maybe I don't, you know, I would go do it, but I'm not like, I'm running from 18 to one. I'm just going to keep looping type of place.
Matt Considine (41:29.118)
Yeah, it's a good walk. You know, I think it would kick your butt from that standpoint. I don't know if I would sign up for 36 in the heat of summer.
The Professor (41:31.032)
Okay.
The Professor (41:37.614)
I mean, the heat of summer up there is real. For people that haven't experienced it, like your upper 90s, the sun is on you. So don't let Northern Michigan trick you into it 71 degrees and the wind is cold.
Matt Considine (41:50.878)
There was also, that's specifics. I apologize. I'm jumping around a little bit, but the, the amount of trees was, limited, but what I learned about the bluff and the nature of it was like, it's almost like these meadow trees where they are these huge tree structures, but they don't cluster. And it just spoke to their conservation of this place, like keeping it as a museum as it was.
The Professor (41:59.139)
Hmm.
Matt Considine (42:19.272)
what was awesome. let me tell one quick story. I, you know, texted with Mike DeVries a little bit after it and, and it so fun to just, man, you can tell how much he loves this place and how, what an impact it's made on his life, his family's life. But, there was a story I heard from folks there that, one of those large oak trees fell on the 12th and some members really,
It did change the whole, they really wanted it something back. And, you know, course architect Mike DeVries or who they, I believe, I'm not certain on this, but I've heard that Mike and Tom have rotated back and forth as the resident architect for the club. And he just said, you know what, let's wait. Let's wait and see, see what happens. I guess that was two years ago. And so what I,
felt from that where there's no rash rash decisions. There was a stewardship probably stemmed from a guy like Mike and Mr. Doak and others like them, but I just think they have such patience and respect for the timeliness of the design that they're not going to overreact to a tree coming down. that, that, that's, that stuck with me. Another thing on the trees too, boy, Mackenzie, I these are some massive.
The Professor (43:18.542)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (43:43.706)
mostly oaks I believe, he had to have been thinking about shade. Like to your point on the Michigan summer when he made that first visit he did this routing he uses such great green sites unbelievable routing through us particularly like five through eight I just was blown away if I could play there's three short par fives or fours five six seven
If you could give me a trio of holes to play for the rest of my life, that's it. So fun.
The Professor (44:17.014)
How short are we talking? we talking about drivable half-pars? What are we looking at?
Matt Considine (44:20.904)
Yeah, depending on the wind so two of them are going to be drivable depending on the wind one of them is not it's a stout the one in the middle is pretty fairly stout and has the best fairway bunker Complex i've ever seen in just built into the hillside. just so good kevin. It's it's incredible But but yeah, that stretch is remarkable yet eight is a lot of people's absolute favorite part five on the planet and and so you get like
The Professor (44:36.268)
Ooh, strong statement.
Matt Considine (44:50.208)
Hits like that that are whoa. What just what do we just play through? But the routing was so great and the point I was making was in that stretch on that front side where there's limited Tree cover there's always a tree on the tee to keep you cool I I thought that was remarkable made me think about some places that have done a lot of this tree removal and I think Why didn't we leave one that would have been?
The Professor (45:09.08)
There is something to be said about that. That one tree that just gives you that three minute reprieve while your partners are teeing up. It can be a godsend in certain climates.
Matt Considine (45:20.512)
Yeah, on T's in particular where everyone gravitates. Anyways, those are, I'm getting to like the finer details, but you can round us out however you'd like.
The Professor (45:27.726)
Yeah, let's go. mean, got to end it with where does it stack up? You know, you've been there now high on your anticipation list, you know, arguably the highest remaining on your bucket list because of the McKenzie and the feeling, you know, it it would be in terms of sentimentals and relating to the hinge. You know, you walk away now, where's the stack up on the places you've been when you take, take it all.
Matt Considine (45:47.84)
Yeah, I haven't ranked and I guess that wouldn't really be our style. It doesn't, I'll say this. I don't think there's many courses I've played quite like it. And that's pretty cool. It reminds me of some severe land forms like Karn came to mind.
The Professor (46:06.338)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (46:17.12)
crude and Bay came to mind, a little bit of in a scrone, like a lot of international stuff came to mind and, it reminded me how, gosh, there, there's so much links land and we don't have as much in the U S but we do have these places like Northern Michigan with sand dunes and bluffs. so, well, Hinch, obviously I mentioned that and, maybe even like some aspects of
The Professor (46:19.384)
Mm. Always excites me.
Matt Considine (46:45.12)
Aaron Hills just in the sea of rolling, even though it's a modern, more of modern interpretation of it. But I just think the severity of the greens, the angle approaches, I've heard a lot of folks compare it to Augusta National because of the elevation change. so, yeah, those are kind of my comps, but of the list that I am building for myself, I want to play every Alistair McKenzie golf course.
The Professor (47:02.232)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (47:13.946)
One, because I am chasing that feeling I mentioned earlier, but two, because I love his literature. I love the way the man thought about strategy, design, but also community, also economics, also societal issues. He wrote about that, and we don't talk about that as much, but he was a very thoughtful, smart, educated man. And there's just something that, when I talk about a college kid working at a backdrop,
The Professor (47:27.32)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (47:42.226)
It starts with the founders and originators and it grows out of something. so of the Alistair Mackenzie's I've played and I don't know, maybe close to halfway there, it's number two for me, right behind my favorite in the world, which is Lhing.
The Professor (47:58.659)
Yeah, I have a hard time imagining anything upending LaHinge relative to everything there. I think what I also hear you saying is you would not tell Aleister McKinsey to just stick to sports.
Matt Considine (48:10.366)
Yeah, no, I definitely, I asked for more. I've hit up our friend at the Alistair McKenzie Institute, trying to find more of those writings. And he does a great job. He's released a couple of books now that do a good job.
The Professor (48:23.214)
Well, it sounds like fantastic place. And I think you and I think the both were at that top level. There's no rankings. It's just, you know, it's your favorite restaurants, your favorite food that, know, yes, the greasy piece in New York, delicious pizza is going to stand up with your favorite Asian fusion Michelin star dish. And you're not going to say one's better than the other. It's what mood you're in for. And that definitely sounds like crystal downs goes into that category.
Matt Considine (48:48.032)
Can I leave us with the little bit of history? I forgot to tell this, but I thought this was so cool. So McKenzie, they, the, the gentleman, I don't have this in front of me and I'm blocking on his name, but he wanted to make nine holes. He read, links by Hunter, Robert Hunter. And in there, I believe, no, he reaches out to Robert Hunter.
The Professor (48:51.266)
Of
The Professor (49:09.324)
Wrath Rover Hunter.
Matt Considine (49:17.51)
And on the West Coast, say, Hey, I have this farmland. I'm going to do something with it for golf. I already built nine actually, but, love, love your readings and would be honored if you'd come up. And Robert said, I can't make it, but you should reach out to associate of mine, Alistair McKenzie. And so Alistair looks at it and you remember he's going from, you know, think about where that guy was. And he was maybe settled at that point or hadn't yet, but he was in.
The Professor (49:41.578)
He's, yeah, he's logging miles.
Matt Considine (49:47.2)
California in in at Cypress Point. I'd love to see a movie made about the stretch of his, you know, global that that that five to ten years of just hit after hit, you know, and what his travel was like, because that's so fascinating to me. any.
The Professor (50:02.126)
In those days too, be clear, like travel from California to Michigan wasn't exactly what we do today.
Matt Considine (50:09.662)
Yeah, and so the, as the story goes, and I was told by another member who seemed to be very knowledgeable on these things, that he usually would go first. So he would get there first and then Perry Maxwell, his associate who we all know built a lot of it and great green complexes and everything that he did so well. Well, this was a rare occasion where he was headed back East and Mackenzie was like, wait,
The Professor (50:24.974)
Love.
Matt Considine (50:35.924)
I gotta go and anybody who can associate with this that has driven down I-90 or train lines at the time, you're telling me I gotta go six more hours north to see this place? Like, no. He's like, Perry, you go. So Perry gets up there first and he was only supposed to spend a day. And I guess he was just so blown away by the land and where this place is and what was possible that he said, Alistair, gotta get here and I'm gonna stay. Like he had to be somewhere on the East coast.
The Professor (50:58.478)
Yeah, I'm not leaving you better turn around get up here we're going yeah, we got we got work to do
Matt Considine (51:03.784)
And so, so the story goes, he scheduled 48 hours to do it. He gets up there, he dives in and he as well says, no, no, I'm not just laying out a golf course here. We're spending a week. So I think it was a week or two and they settled in and, there's a, there's another famous story about a glass, running out of bourbon. It's in the prohibition and he, and Mackenzie liked his, liked his Brown liquor as, as I'm told, but
Perry was, they were out. so he had to go wherever at the time you would go down to the store front or maybe the bootleg or whatever to go get some more booze. And it was late at night and he comes back and and Alice just says, I got it. It's all done. Here it is. And then Perry goes, this was the front night, by the way, he goes, that's, that's outstanding. Wow. This is great. But where are you going to put number nine? And Alice was like, what? And he looks at his date. It's eight holes. So there's this ninth hole. That's a par three. That's kind of.
pretty close to the clubhouse that people do debate was this actually intended or not. And I know it's a funny story, but there's a tremendous amount of history at a place like that. People proud to tell that history as well. I just, one last story here as we wrap up that I found that I got a good chuckle out of and thinking about Alistair McKenzie back in the twenties, you know, discovering this and putting together a pretty special stretch of golf.
The Professor (52:26.774)
Yeah, true by definition connector hole right like shoot, we gotta get from here to here. Well, what's the yardage? OK, we're just we're putting a hole that yardage is what we're what we're put in there.
Matt Considine (52:30.336)
Fine.
Matt Considine (52:39.198)
And I like it. I think it's a severe par three. It's very severe on the slope, but I thought it was a fun shot, fun hole.
The Professor (52:45.966)
Yeah, gotta make it work. like, I don't know if 18 at Paso Tiempo was one of the last holes finished off. It always struck me as, you know, I know the history of the routing and how it evolved, but like, okay, that as a finisher was the, my gosh, I've got a great 17 holes and I guess this is how we get back to the clubhouse. And it's a great part three, no doubt, but strikes me as like, oh, we have a puzzle, we've solved it and this is what we're left with as a final piece.
Matt Considine (53:10.27)
You got to have them, right? Any, any platyliad, there's going to be some, professor, thanks. That was fun. I appreciate you inviting me to do that.
The Professor (53:11.82)
You gotta have them.
The Professor (53:19.822)
Yeah, I'll just sit and look at my phone for the next couple years and just maybe someday I'll. I'll get to invite to fly up there and you know, work on our best ball or best ball performance together. Maybe someday.
Matt Considine (53:25.354)
Hey man, and.
Matt Considine (53:31.348)
Well, places like that are obviously not happening every day for most golfers, but I think it's what we always say on this show. Can we take 5%, 10 % of that and bring it back to our everyday golf? Can we still enjoy elements of what we just described in a Muni down the street? And the people you play with has a lot to do with that. The culture of a club has a lot to do with that. A sense of belonging and meaning to your golf has a lot to do with that. And it doesn't require...
The Professor (53:54.808)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (54:00.872)
a top 10 golf course to do. so even though we talked a lot about one of those today, it's always good, I think, to level set. Like, yeah, those are the pieces we can aspire to. It's always good for the game. But a lot of what I described too can happen just about anywhere.
The Professor (54:18.862)
That's right.
Matt Considine (54:21.258)
Well, thank you, Professor. Thanks everybody for listening. Looking forward to catching you on the next one. Professor and I were in silly season of the podcast, but now we got to get our games ready for a little competition here in November. So maybe we'll be connecting more often. Shoot us a note at the backdrop at newclub.golf if you got thoughts, questions, ideas. And thanks to our partners at Titleist, the all new T-Series of irons, the alignment series of Pro V1 golf balls and the GT.
metal woods are all out and ready to be fitted. So check them out at [tidiless.com](http://tidiless.com/) and we'll look forward to seeing you guys on the next one.
