Matt Considine (00:01.774)
Welcome to the new club backdrop, Untold Stories in Golf. I'm your host, Matt Cosine, here with our co-host, the professor, Dr. Kevin Moore. Top of the morning to you, professor.
The Professor (00:12.901)
I need some advice.
Matt Considine (00:15.148)
I'm here for ya.
The Professor (00:16.675)
What do do when you're lost in the woods with your swing, just your game? What's your strategy for getting un-lost?
Matt Considine (00:25.88)
taking a extend, I took a long pause because we've all been there. You take an extended break from the game. You don't look at your golf clubs. put them out of view. You go play tennis or cribbage or whatever else there is you can do. Go shoot some hoops. That's one thing I do that helps. Go get some other activity that involves getting a ball and a hole and then come back to it.
The Professor (00:55.505)
So you're telling me to take a break. This is what you're telling me.
Matt Considine (00:57.302)
I think so, man. We overthink this stuff so much. mean, heck, how many times have we done it in our golf games and on this podcast? yeah, you got to. So you lost it? Did you have it?
The Professor (01:09.905)
I'm just, I don't know. I don't know. It's golf. Who knows? We never have the answers. Only questions. But we're, we're, we're kind of lost. And then I'll find it like yesterday. I found it for, I don't know, 10, 11 holes, like perfect golf. think I hit all but one green and everything inside 20 feet and just one swing and it's gone again. And then it's just like six holes of just pure scrambling, like no, no clue where the ball's going. Can't feel anything.
Matt Considine (01:18.126)
Only questions.
Matt Considine (01:36.866)
When you lose it, do you lose it through the bag or do you lose it in a certain element of the bag like in your driver's swing and then your mid irons or really? I kinda, I've been thinking about this. There was a meme I saw on social media that had like the toggle buttons that you have on your iPhone, right? And at the top it was driver and then it was long irons and then it was mid irons and wedges and putting.
The Professor (01:43.681)
It's through the bag. Everything. Everything goes at once. Yeah.
The Professor (02:00.059)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (02:03.714)
And it was funny because you see the thumb hit the top one, it turns on the driver and it goes the next one, turns on the long irons, goes the next one, turns on the mid irons and it goes to turn on the wedges and the first three disappear, go off. And then he clicks the bottom ones and he goes to hit driver again and then the bottom ones all disappear, go off. And it's so true, like that's been my, when I am in the darkness and I lose it, it's usually, there's at least one part of the game where I'm like, wait, why am I hitting?
The Professor (02:14.833)
Ha
The Professor (02:19.291)
This is a turn.
Matt Considine (02:31.692)
My wedge is so good now, but I've lost the driver's swing or why am I putting so well, but my chipping is no good. It's so frustrating. Can't have it all.
The Professor (02:39.983)
Yeah, yeah, I'm just, I'm not sleeping well right now, just.
Matt Considine (02:44.526)
Well, that's the other part. You can't let it affect like you are. And what I'll say is, is the professor, you are far more than just a golfer, sir. And, and so there's a lot of things in your everyday that should let you sleep easy and not, not worry about this, this measly game of golf.
The Professor (03:03.983)
Yeah, like the frustrating thing for me is I think we won our match five and four, six and five, whatever, like dominated the match. And I mean, it played a great 10, 11 holes. And then yeah, I go home and try to go to sleep. And it's just like, I lost it. Like where, where is it? Like, how do I, like, I, I put just did not finish off the round. And that's, that's what I go to bed with. mean, yeah.
Matt Considine (03:19.468)
What? Right.
Matt Considine (03:27.534)
Yeah. Yeah. I think, uh, you know, read some of my favorite sports psychology books. So that'll maybe, maybe the other, the other trade secret. Um, we got a fun one today. The, uh, uh, the guest is ourselves and the topic is really a followup to one of our most listened to podcasts this year. We did a duty pod, uh, not my children's version of duty, the duty that members have at their golf club a couple episodes ago. And it elicited a pretty.
a sizable response for our little show, know, little pockets and corners of the golf world. There was a reaction to it, which I found fascinating. Right. And so we focused on that one for those that didn't listen to it. You can go back and give it a go. I think it's called We Are the Club as its title. But we talked about culture and how member responsibility sets the tone for a club. There are our places.
What we'd want to see more of in the US golf, particularly, I think is how we ended it. But there's a lot of good places in the landscape of golf in the US that are wonderful clubs. And we thought today maybe we should, we should talk about them. You know, the places that the professor and I have been to or the places that we want to go back to or go to based on reputation as both.
welcome guest and and members of that club, you places that we would want to have a locker hang a hat and and represent that club. So, yeah, we got it. This will be a fun one today. Give a couple of shout outs to folks that are doing some good things in the world of golf.
The Professor (05:07.193)
Yeah, I think it's really easy. And I believe we made this point in the duty episode to just be negative or really channel like part of this podcast. You know, our role is to challenge the current golf landscape. And I think all too often we forget to actually bring up the shining examples, the beacons that are out there. So this is our opportunity to do that. I know we're going to forget a lot of places semester starting. So I'm
I'm all over the place. My mind, I certainly apologize ahead of time. If we missed you emails at backdrop, a new club golf, because this is not going be an exhaustive list, but it is a chance for us to celebrate some of the places that we love to go to. we think either on the whole, or at least in some sort of, particular way or, you know, contributing to the game and the way we like to see it can be model examples for other, other clubs or people that are starting clubs or reshaping their own clubs that are out there. These are the places.
a lot of these places that you might want to go visit and just spend a couple of days just observing. think that's, you know, if I had to reshape club boards, I think one of the things I think club board should do is they should have financial investment from the club to make them travel, but not to go drink it up and booze it up and hang out and like play golf and then bounce out. Like go, what I love to do is anytime I'm visiting, just try to sit there for hours and just watch the people, the staff, the members.
move, interact with each other, members and the staff, sit outside, watch how they're consuming the golf, what they're doing. And I think any club, anybody that's building a club, reshaping a club or club board should go do those things and just sit around and observe these places that are the best, that are considered the best in the world and just study them. So hopefully we give some ideas for anybody that's willing to take that kind of research approach to just be observational and see how the best places do it.
Matt Considine (06:58.892)
I think that's been a big part of this show. Obviously it's been a big part of our friendship to be frank, but we both really enjoyed doing that of, you know, if we have the time to sit and talk to members and learn about why things are the way they are, you know, new club was born because of doing that very thing overseas and
Probably don't do it enough here in the US less examples of course in the US of where we wanted to to build our golf society, but You can learn so much about a people in a place and The society by hanging out at a golf course hanging out at a golf club. It's it's truly a fascinating study. So that's a great point professor Give us another one. Maybe a fact perhaps
The Professor (07:53.458)
Let's go with, what do we wanna do today? All right, so I've done cold plunges and all that in the past. We're in the hot middle of summer, right? What do you do to cool down in the summer? You get done playing golf and like you're super sweaty, super hot. What's your go-tos?
Matt Considine (08:06.52)
Mmm.
Matt Considine (08:11.252)
Actually, ever since our England trip, I've been teaching bartenders throughout Northeast Ohio how to create a gunner, trying to lighten the alcohol consumption and just doing a gunner, which has bitters, but not... So gunners are very refreshing. Those are ginger beer, ginger ale, bitters, blocking on what the others do. But anyway, that's a nice refreshing drink. The other one...
The Professor (08:34.543)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (08:38.811)
Great hang, great hangover cure by the way. Ginger ale with some bitters. Yeah, really good hangover cure.
Matt Considine (08:41.366)
yeah, I can see that. Yeah, I can see that. Ice cream though, ice cream man. with the kids. I loaded up at Costco the other day. We're just getting home all sweaty and hanging out in AC and ice cream.
The Professor (08:57.583)
Yeah. So conventional wisdom would say like, okay, you're hot. Take a cold shower, drink something really cold, eat something really cold. Counterintuitively that kind of serves the opposite effect. Typically you want to go with say a hot beverage. and here's the science behind that or even a warmer shower, but the hot beverage is the better approach. So drink something hot. That's getting into your internal system that triggers to your body even more. So cool itself down. So your body will start producing sweat.
and you will actually cool down quicker by using a hot beverage post hot golf round. And the flip side's true too. Super cold round, you're out and working in the snow, whatever you're having to do. know, conventional wisdom says get in there, drink that hot coffee or hot cocoa or whatever. Same thing applies. Drink something little colder and that'll generate in your body a response to start warming itself up. So follow the, just like the golf swing.
Matt Considine (09:53.57)
That's, yeah.
The Professor (09:55.804)
trying to fix it, do the opposite of what you think you should do.
Matt Considine (09:59.138)
Yeah, you're in the darkness. You want to go practice? Don't. Just sit at home, you know?
The Professor (10:04.465)
It's just don't just that's right. Just said I might I tell you I was going to go hit balls tonight. I think I'm gonna put it aside. Just go have a date with have a date with Claire. To be clear, that's not the opposite of hitting balls. I enjoy both of them. What opposite hitting balls? I don't know. Go. I'd go do a journal review or something like that. I think would be the opposite of hitting balls. Something I just go grade some papers as well do something I absolutely hate.
Matt Considine (10:11.884)
What's the opposite of hitting balls? Yeah.
Yes, sir.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, life is just a series of contradictions and opposites, I think, at the end of the day. On the new club side, shout out to our newest members, Jimmy Nueske, he's a Chicago member, Collin Cook, Atlanta, James Nelson, Chicago, Christopher Walling, Chicago, Nick Scarpina, Chicago, Joshua Collins, Atlanta. Welcome to the club. Jump in and Slack, introduce yourself.
And everyone else out there, get them out, them playing, ask them to join us for a match. lot of golf being played right now at New Club, which is very fun to see. Titleists and their T-Series Irons are still cooking. The three dimensions of Irons performance. You know what they look for, Kevin?
The Professor (11:18.843)
What'd look for? Hit us with some facts.
Matt Considine (11:20.268)
Distance control dispersion control and descent angle the 3ds so the top T100s that I am currently rocking with they have that consistency through the bag. They got a whole new groove design Change some things in the internal face. They got some cavity channels in the longer irons Which is increasing ball speed and control, but it's all really geared to get those 3ds Distance control your dispersion control and your descent
angle throughout the bag, that peak height throughout the bag. So whether it's the T100s I'm in, the T150s, the T250s or the T350s, they all are engineered for that optimal gapping between those 3Ds. So visit tidalist.com to find your nearest certified fitter. And thanks to Tidalist for the support of this show, support of the bag drop.
very excited to get back out to TPI here later in the year. Professor, what do you say? Let's get to some clubs. Let's get talking.
The Professor (12:23.814)
rocket.
Matt Considine (12:26.55)
All right, so one thing I thought I'd start with on shouting out was the amount of private and elite clubs, because we're still in that competitive golf window, particularly these amateur events. I was browsing some of the USGAs' rota for where they're headed for some of these events and it's places they haven't been forever and they are elite private clubs.
The Professor (12:49.585)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (12:53.678)
So I wanna give shout out to some of those, but also the thing that made me excited about it more on the localized level is two groups. I wanna shout out the Philadelphia section for always hosting. They've never deviated, the Philadelphia section. And I only know this from a good friend, Phil Oroka, who played in a lot of things in Philly. And he would just casually be saying, I'll play Marion.
a couple Mondays, you playing Marion with it? No, it's just an AM qualifier. What? The AM qualifiers at Marion? Like, get out of here. So, like Philly do it exceptionally right. They support that broader ecosystem. But I also want to say the Wisconsin State Golf Association, they have also been on this mission for as long as I've been paying attention, probably a decade or so. And they just had the Wisconsin State AM at Lido, which...
The Professor (13:33.197)
I also want to say to Wisconsin and State Law Officials, they have also been.
The Professor (13:45.937)
I saw that.
Matt Considine (13:46.368)
A newer example of an elite private club, obviously with public access through the resort. If you are staying on property, you might have a chance to play the Lido, but that was awesome. I knew people that played in it. texted them. They said it was so cool. Such a great venue for that championship that they played in for years, but never at a place like that. That moves the game forward. You know, I just, I just wanted to shout out those groups of
We're going to talk a little bit more today, I'm sure, about being a guest in these places that maybe allow for some accessibility, maybe they don't. the cultures of, think a big part of that culture is supporting competitive golf, is supporting amateur golf, and just the conscientiousness of being outside of just your membership for, you know, whatever the Wisconsin State Am is, four days at Lido. That's a big...
nugget to take, right, of both revenue and play away from members and it matters. So that's where I wanted to start today. Shout out to Lido and Sam Valley and their members and perpetual 100 year shout out to the Philadelphia section for the events that they hosted, all those world-class clubs in Philly.
The Professor (15:02.673)
Yeah. When I saw, I think I saw it on Instagram, the, the lead of news or whatever, and my mouth just dropped. was like, surely this isn't real. They're not hosting the, you know, the AM there. And yeah, it was. And I think recently they hosted it maybe up at La Sonia in the last five years or so too. Maybe WSGA, right? Like they've used it a bunch. Shout out to Nebraska. Some other examples, you know, going to Landman and Landman, you know, doing hosting there. I also always think of the Southwest Ohio section, you know,
Matt Considine (15:17.686)
It's been at LaSonia a number of times. Yeah.
Matt Considine (15:27.362)
Yeah.
The Professor (15:32.242)
Camargo and Moraine every year, typically, but both courses almost every year, either on the USGA Mid-Am, the State Mid-Am, the USAM or something like that. I remember I played 54 holes at Camargo one year, for what, $175 or whatever that was. I mean, just absolutely amazing. So yeah, to your point, I think let's not kid ourselves. Tournament golf shapes a subset of the golf population and their expectation for courses.
Matt Considine (15:35.512)
Good point.
The Professor (16:00.837)
whether it's conditioning, design, what it means to play the game at a high level, like the style of game that's played at a high level. So the more often we can go to these golf courses that, you know, ask certain questions, the more that can actually trickle down and influence the game and the people that play it. Cause you look at some of these places and you're just like, man, if we could add a little technology rollback, just what, how beautiful that high level competitive game.
could actually be in capturing some of the original soul of the game.
Matt Considine (16:31.938)
Yeah. Yeah. That might actually support, the, the, the rollback argument. If you get the, the AMC, know, tearing up places like Marion and these 120 year old courses likely, though, which is a recreation of the original on long Island. have you looked at some of the Walker cup and Curtis cup venues coming up?
The Professor (16:53.137)
I have, and I've played golf several times recently with one particular friend, good friend, as well as a couple of others that are about to jump on planes and go out to the Walker cup. this year, which this, this year's happens to be at the Cypress point club at Pebble beach.
Matt Considine (17:09.294)
Right, so Cypress Point is gonna have, do you think the fans, is it gonna be, I might actually be going, it overlaps with some travel. Do you think the number of fans, I don't even know how this works, is it gonna get out of control? Is there gonna be too many people just wanting to walk the property?
The Professor (17:24.177)
I'm sure there, what the ticket was done in the lottery system, which I told, I, totally missed. totally missed the lottery system, kicking myself. Cause if I could have got me and Claire out there, like talk about a place that, know, she's starting to fall in. Well, she's falling in love with the game. Now she's starting to fall in playing it. I'm like walking around Cypress pride point probably have been that figurative push off a cliff where she'd been just all in. but yeah, lottery system, right? Cause there, there's still no ropes at the Walker cup. I remember watching what the old course.
Matt Considine (17:27.288)
Okay, there were tickets. Yeah, I wasn't sure.
The Professor (17:52.22)
You know, still no ropes up like fans. just, you just wander just like, where do you want to walk? Walk around there. But, take us, take us through the list of the Walker cup. I'll let you, you've been, you know, beating this drum for awhile.
Matt Considine (18:02.422)
I just had it up. Yeah. Well, my favorite golf course on planet earth, hosts at LaHinche golf club in Claire. And so, love, love seeing that in Ireland, back to band and dunes and then Prince's golf club, which I just played in sandwich England, kind of a sleeper that I think people will keep getting. It was leveled by world war.
Like it had all these rolling dunes and it just got leveled. So they're kind of trying to recreate those, those sand dunes in a natural look.
The Professor (18:35.441)
Was it level from the warfare or was it like they leveled it out for like planes and tanks and stuff like that? Yeah.
Matt Considine (18:38.616)
Tanks. Yes. Yeah, like heavy, you know, military equipment and machinery. All the picture, you can see the pictures in their clubhouse. Like it's wild that a golf course is still there. Oakmont, after that in 2032. Chicago Golf Club, after that in Wheaton, Illinois. Pine Valley, after that. Well, that's 2044.
The Professor (18:57.371)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (19:08.534)
Yeah, man, those are some untouchables, right? The ethos of and I think that's the message, right? The broader golf universe. Let me also be clear. I don't think that's enough. I don't think you're able to remove yourself from the responsibilities of the broader golf ecosystem by hosting 24 of the top amateurs in the Walker Club. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying it is a message and a tradition.
that we've lost, particularly in the U.S. tradition of our best courses and our best clubs and our best stewards for the game of golf to support the very top competitive arrangements. And now there's so much money in pro golf, we can't really get those back and they have to have the footprint and don't get a start on the rollback with that. But these other places for the amateur game, for the Curtis Cup, Curtis Cup is equally as good. Sorry, I didn't get into that. I had that up to country.
Bel Air country club coming up a Royal Tornock after that national golf links after that pine Valley after that and then they're going to band of deans as well, so my point is saying that is just it's a step in a good direction of Let people in maybe it's just viewers. Maybe it's just viewers, but let people in trust them to protect your club trust viewers and trust
Once you let that in, that'll just broaden these values of the game of golf, this traditional game of golf. And right now when we keep it closed door, think we spite ourselves to save our face.
The Professor (20:47.983)
Yeah, I think there's, you know, kind of, there's a talking on both sides of the mouth phenomenon here, right? Like to put your point, like applaud them, but also that's not enough. And I also look at this from the organizational standpoint, like kudos to to the organizing bodies for getting these events on these just places that are primed to host them, right? The places that
We need more exposure in the sense of people need to see them because of their influence of great architecture and just great styling. And that's, what we should see. And then at the same time, you wonder like, well, what about all the public places or all the other places that are doing some of the positive things and then aren't getting the light shine, shine, shine them and them in these ways, you know, where, where are those places too? Um, so I'm always, I'm always confused.
Matt Considine (21:28.344)
Mm.
Matt Considine (21:35.714)
It's almost like, it's almost like take the amateur events to these elite private clubs and take the professional opens back to the Beth pages and the Aaron Hills and the chambers base.
The Professor (21:45.49)
I think that's honestly like, I think that's the solution, right? Like these, like the organized, the USGA and organizational bodies of the Walker cup and the Curtis cup and all that. Like, yeah, let's get the amateurs on these like pretty exclusive places and then let's make the pros play where the everyday guys can play, you know, that sort of thing. I think that would be a, a beautiful model. Cause obviously the pro game showcases more in terms of eyes. So celebrating these.
Matt Considine (22:00.408)
Yeah.
The Professor (22:09.723)
These places that everybody can play would be a cool approach for the program and then let the amateurs get their special treatment. to be one of the best amateurs in the world is such a feat. Right? Like you're doing it. Obviously we have NIL in place and so that's not like some of them are getting paid, like amateurs typically are doing it for the love of the game more so than a pro. They're not jaded yet as we all get with a job, right? 15 years into any job and you're jaded. so it's yeah, as a pro golfer, like you're going to get jaded, but most of the AMs aren't so.
taking them to these places, I think is nothing but applause is deserved for doing that and putting these cool events at those places.
Matt Considine (22:46.84)
That's, I want to start there because I think, I know that it comes from a sense of duty in those memberships, right? But it was a bit of a tangent to get into competitive amateur golf. Let's get back to like, let's get to your list. Like where are some places, professor, you've been that the culture of that club, the ethos of the club, it stems from membership and it's a place you either want to be a part of as a member or you want to be.
there as a guest.
The Professor (23:17.145)
Yeah, I'm going to start off number one. I think it's in the current times, like right now. Again, this is strictly speaking to the, I'm going with a private place here.
Matt Considine (23:28.712)
And I would say, here's what I would, I know you asked that earlier about in a text, which should be private or public. I think it should be a club. I think it should be a membership that has membership dues. I want to think less about, that's one thing I've always forced myself to do better at, which is overseas, there is no public or private. There are clubs and courses. And so let's keep it to clubs and courses. And specifically for this conversation.
The Professor (23:33.731)
Yeah. Yeah.
The Professor (23:49.199)
Yeah, that's a great point.
Matt Considine (23:57.096)
memberships, if there's a membership there, that they would qualify for what we're talking
The Professor (24:01.647)
Okay. And I'm to put aside Sweden's go. I'll circle back on that later, or you'll take that one from me. but I want to start with, I'm to start with, I'm going to start with old barnwell. cause I think in terms of recent builds, you know, we've been following this place from day zero from the first time I got across our radar for several reasons. One, knowing a few of the individuals evolved early on in terms of its launch, as well as, you we've gotten to know, I think you made me little better. Me, Nick over time.
Matt Considine (24:07.746)
I'll probably steal it.
nice.
The Professor (24:31.163)
But I'm going to start with sort of how I started our duty pod. Our mission is simple to bring people together through golf. and I apologize to Nick if he doesn't want the deck and the mission read out loud. think he would want it read out loud. So I also want to go to the ideal member. this is a bulleted list, believing in support our mission, respect other members, guests, employees want to be a part of a community that goes beyond golf. Enjoy meeting and playing with new people value and unrushed, but brisk pace of play.
Understand that welcoming beginners and families as a pro, not a con. Appreciate exceptional golf course design, enjoy alternate formats like match play, foursomes, et cetera. Want to improve and help others improve. And we could go through a list of the things they're doing within their club, you know, supporting the women's game, the kids course and so on. But just that alone, that's very early in their initial deck mission statement. think that's the first text page other than like an introduction.
And again, I think that sets the tone of what like I've experienced, um, watching them, you know, grow that original membership where the paycheck didn't matter. All it like they interviewed people and there were people they turned away that were great golfers, people that would get into any club that they could afford, you know, across the world and old bar and well, it's like, no, you don't connect with our mission. Um, so they're my first shout out that I think that is one of the more recent.
clubs that's in golf courses that's launched that is an elite top level place that has made, Hey, what is the ethos of our membership? Our club, a forward thing that they've been just super intentional through that all the way through. And so far everyone I've met that's a member there that's resonated as I talk with them. like, yeah, you're like, there's a reason you're at old Barnwell right now. Like it makes sense that you're there. and it wasn't just cause you
knew the right people and could afford the initiation that was there. So shout out old Barnwell, Nick, original, you know, membership driver, Morgan Purvis, and everybody else involved in that, including that initial batch of members for pushing that place forward.
Matt Considine (26:40.526)
And I'll second that. This could be a pro or a con based on how you view it. But in my orbit, Matt Gonsignan here at New Club, Old Barnwell is a course that I run into, whether it be members there, members that are interested, staff, just connections in the broader game of golf, more than anywhere else right now.
It's Derek Zulander, it's so hot right now, or Hans, it's hot right now. But it's bigger than that, where I think what you said is so true, and I've gotten to know Nick a little bit as well. Morgan has been a past guest on this show, Morgan Purvis. And when they were getting started, which we were fortunate to know them then, you're right, Kevin, it was leading with that mission, leading with that culture.
I think if you look at a lot of other developments column or other clubs, they are fearful. They might feel many of the same way, but they're fearful that that's not the way to, win and be profitable, to, be sustainable that you have to, you know, focus on exclusivity more, or you have to focus on, you know, up in that initiation price to.
The Professor (27:54.34)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (28:09.006)
unmanageable levels for a wider swath of population. it takes real discipline and it takes real commitment to get something off the ground and make it successful with leading with heart, leading with those values. But what I see and why I think it ends up in my orbit so often is that it does resonate. It really resonates. It resonates with the real human piece of why we want to be a part of a club at all, which isn't
to have empty golf courses and exclusive access. It is to feel like we belong and to feel like we're a part of something, that we're given back to something. That's the fulfillment I think we're looking for. And I think that's, I'm glad you started with those guys, because they are leading the way, I think, in that.
The Professor (28:49.713)
Hmm.
The Professor (28:59.257)
Yeah. Like the member there, there's a pride around being a member of that, that I see in their members. it's, it's not only because it's one of the best golf courses in the world. Right. Like it's not because it's like, yeah. So your, to your point, it's not because it's exclusive. Like there's a pride, I think because of the community that they're involved with, right? Like I'm part of old barn. Well is the message that comes from their members. And to me, that just really speaks to like,
Matt Considine (29:11.502)
Yeah, it should be said though that they did build a top 100 golf course.
The Professor (29:29.083)
they feel like they're, they're proud of the club and they're part of the club and that they are a player within the club. And, and I hope they hold, they're able to hold onto that, you know, and I know Nick's working hard on that as they continue to move forward and grow and evolve and build out a second course and grow the membership. I, you know, knock on wood and I'm, confident they will be able to execute in a way where they keep growing that, that ethos and hold onto that. Cause I know they're working hard at doing that. So, all right, kicking to you.
Matt Considine (29:57.73)
Outstanding. Yeah, we'll just do, do you want to do tennis? Okay, all right. I mean, it's a long list, but can I bucket a group of clubs?
The Professor (29:58.162)
Let's play tennis. Let's do tennis. What do you got?
The Professor (30:10.897)
You can bucket and we'll do maybe some quick hits at the end as a yes audience. We're doing this a little spontaneously. We can do like quick hits at the end, just quick shout out. So bucket, do whatever, do whatever you want to do.
Matt Considine (30:16.384)
Yeah, this is a bucket that people might not expect from me, but I'm going to add a couple clubs here. California Golf Club.
The Professor (30:30.04)
Mm. Took one of mine.
Matt Considine (30:33.09)
Beverly Country Club.
Canterbury Golf Club, Columbus Country Club, now it's Columbus, Ohio. So Canterbury and Columbus are in Ohio, Beverly's in South Side Chicago, and California Golf Club is in San Francisco. What do those have in common, do you think?
The Professor (30:39.396)
Okay.
The Professor (30:43.633)
That's Columbus Ohio.
The Professor (30:52.643)
Okay, where are going with this? have all phenomenal golf courses. All definitely playing golf courses are like their golfers golf courses. A little bit off the beaten path, like in terms of I guess Cal Club is now very well known in Beverly Beverly and Beverly since its renovation.
Matt Considine (31:13.518)
Cal might, I might be too nostalgic about my Cal Club introductions, but.
The Professor (31:18.353)
At a time, they were not well known 20 years ago. And I think Columbus Country Club is like right now what Cal Club in Beverly were 20 years ago. What do you got? What's your common theme?
Matt Considine (31:30.648)
So the two commonalities, first off, I love the culture of all these clubs. I love the members I meet of these clubs. They're very proud of their culture, their club, and their golf courses. But the two commonalities I thought about with these are, one, where they're located. So they're in areas that used to have some affluence, but are now,
The Professor (31:54.33)
Okay.
Matt Considine (31:59.47)
in a rougher part of town. And so they're not necessarily going to prop up their membership with locals anymore, but they're having to seek golf, real people that are there for the golf. So it's golf for golf's sake, to quote another club I was gonna shout out. We'll get to them, we'll get to those guys. But it's golf, it's all about golf. And so that's one.
The Professor (31:59.708)
yeah.
The Professor (32:21.169)
We'll get there.
Matt Considine (32:28.61)
And, and then two is where, where they're located. think they almost were forced into that based on the socioeconomic levels around them. But that has created a bit of a, of a almost destination feel for those who are, committed to the game of golf, to playing golf, to walking. Also, there's a big walking culture with each of those, caddy programs with, with each of those. And, and then the second.
The Professor (32:33.777)
Mmm.
The Professor (32:54.065)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (32:58.092)
I guess it's the third part. it's that extreme golf focus. It's the location in metro areas that are in these a bit distressed zones. And then the third was what you did mention, which is they're just off the radar. They're just out of the top 100 list, exception to Cal Club. They used to be, they used to be though. All these podcasters had to ruin that bunch of, but.
The Professor (33:15.813)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (33:19.281)
how it used to be.
Well, and getting shout out to their president, how they did the renovation and they very intentional moving it forward. Go beacon of hope on that. If you're trying to do that, go study what they did to do what they did.
Matt Considine (33:35.148)
Right. Right. And, I guess where I'm going with that is there's something that happens with a club culture that I don't particularly enjoy. soon as the list checkers are interested, the list checkers just want to get that notch in their belt. They want to see the golf course reviewers are always pounding on the gates to review it so they can add to their resume. And, and I just think it loses a little something. And I, I looked at
The Professor (33:46.864)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (34:02.638)
my full list here as I was jotting things down this morning on the places I've been enjoyed. And that was a commonality that they, they were not chasing a top 100 position. weren't chasing a, a ranking of sorts. They were able to be confident and comfortable in their product and their focus, their core focus of a place for members to promote the game of golf, as you said, and, and enjoy it with.
their guests and others. That's just an environment I like to be around. And a lot of them are more walkable, I think. I think once you do start changing your ranking, sometimes that brings in other things. But yeah, there's just a vibe related to that that I enjoy. I'm there for that. And it's conducive to playing the game and enjoying your company.
The Professor (34:41.328)
Yeah.
The Professor (34:58.681)
Yeah, I think something that stands out to me about each of those four that you said, so Canterbury, Columbus Country Club, Club, Beverly. There's a big difference between clubs that you walk in and you automatically feel like an outsider and a guest versus clubs that you walk in and you don't get that feeling and they don't give you that feeling with the way the staff interacts with you and the way the setup is of the clubhouse and the locker room and so on.
And I think all four of those hit that category. As soon as you walk on the grounds, you almost feel like a member. I remember the first time I was at Cal Club, our good friend and host, I'm not sure he wants to name, we'll keep him nameless, but Akron, fellow Akron person, he couldn't make it. just got him busy. So I'm out there for work and then I come up to Cal Club and he's like, texts me, like, I'm not going to be able to make it today, probably. He's like, just go enjoy yourself. And walked in and you know,
had lunch, played, got like, and it was like nothing. And I was just like, no one coming up to me like, Hey, can we help you? Like who, you know, what's your member number? Who are like, none of that really occurred. So just, you know, places like that, that, you know, once, when you're on property, it make you feel like you're part of the place. I always appreciate that. Rather than the message of like, you don't belong here. And there's definitely people nameless, but there's plenty of places once you're on property, even if you're with a member.
It's the message is you don't belong here and you better be thankful that you're here having your day.
Matt Considine (36:27.086)
Oh, I was at a place where we ordered a round of drinks. The member had to get going, had to run. Hey guys, enjoy the drinks. I, he did get, you know, we just got showers. He hadn't, but he was on the phone and you can tell something was up. had to go. And so we all thanked for the round and we sat down to our drinks. We didn't even finish them before they asked us to go. It was wild. And, and not that I just can't see a world where that makes sense. I just can't.
The Professor (36:48.005)
Yeah. Yeah.
Matt Considine (36:55.178)
And for whatever reason, they think that they're living in one that it does, but that just really left a incredibly sour taste in my mouth of a place that is highly revered by pretty much everybody. just seems unnecessary. You don't want guests to take too much, but trust us to not take too much. Trust us to enjoy the experience and that our members set the right expectation. Again, back to member responsibilities.
He let us know that it wasn't going to be a thing that we could, you know, stay all night and nor did we intend to, but just getting that kind of push, which was initiated by another member, which is wild, but, okay. I got off, off track there. What's your next, you asked me for one. gave you seven, but go ahead.
The Professor (37:41.5)
That's fine. Maybe I'll play the same game. I'll use what I've replaced. That's on my mind recently. I'll use as an example and I think you can go broader and you can name some places that will follow this, but I'm going to go with one of Moissette as another place that I just thoroughly and thoroughly enjoyed recently. in several reasons. One of the primary reasons was how much it honors its history. Just you walk through which soon as you walk into that clubhouse,
Matt Considine (37:54.626)
Yeah. Providence, Rhode Island.
The Professor (38:11.633)
The number of things on the wall showing, you babe, having played there, the number, you know, it's designers, the evolution of the golf course, the amateur tournament they host and everything that's been there. Just the hallways are just decorated with club history. Every single, you know, not done by a fancy designer that's coming and made all the frames perfect. And what it's like, it looks like they've just over time, just like assembled like, Hey, we'll just put it. Okay. Where are we going to put this? I don't know. Hang it on the wall somewhere. And like,
You just walk through and just every inch of the wall all the way through is decorated with its history and the place feels old. looks old. You know, stuff hasn't been updated in so long and, and it's not pretentious at all. Like, and to me, any place that honors its golf history like that, just automatically I'm going to pin it on my wall as a place I want to go back to. You know, other places I think about, you know, you mentioned Columbus country clubs. So some of our Atlanta people might be able
Columbus, Georgia, no country club of Columbus. So in Georgia does a similar thing. You walk through there and you know, the Haskins is based out of there and like, they just, they honor that. so I really appreciate, places that honor their golf history and show that off and do this sort of, you know, grandpa's rec room design to their clubhouse. And they don't try to change it every year and, know, put millions of dollars into it every 10 years updated to the current fad. Now, what I'd also say about that place is
that just built on like no sense of pretentiousness. So I expected, you know, I knew a lot about what I'm moist in terms of its history, what it's hosted, you know, Donald Ross design par 69 on a hundred acres that still plays like a tournament beefy golf course, a brilliant Andrew green renovation restoration to the, to the greens themselves with huge expansions. Um, just, you know, arguably one of the best set of 18 greens in terms of tournament golf and challenge you can find.
And so I really thought like I'd get there and it'd be, you know, being in Providence, being in the Northeast, it would just be a little more top button, be a little more pretentious, fancy, you know, guard at the gate. But now, you know, it's you, you're pulling in through a neighborhood. You're like, is there really going to be one of the best golf courses in the world that I'm pulling into? And you pull up to it and the clubhouse is not very big and imposing. There's not no big imposing infrastructure, completely laid back and you get on grounds and the membership you're like, do you even know what you have?
The Professor (40:39.515)
Like not in a negative way, not like, like it's presented exactly how it should be, but they truly think, and I was talking to several members and they were laughing about a survey and their general membership, check the box that it's just a local golf club. Like it's not regionally important. It's not nationally important or recognized. Like it is just a local country club golf club is how they think of their club, despite being a nationally and in some ways internationally recognized golf club and golf course.
So that to me, when you walk on and feel that, this place that's not like, oh yeah, we're a national golf club. People come, like you Kevin, come try to play here. It's a flip of that. It's like, oh, you're here to see the golf course? What'd you think? Did you enjoy it? And it's like, well, of course, it's one of the best golf courses in the world. They really just see themselves as a local next door country club. And that's all it is in their eyes. And that's the way they behave on.
on property as a membership. And that was really cool, really cool to feel.
Matt Considine (41:41.006)
I love that. love that. I, uh, I used to work for Groupon and I was launching Providence Rhode Island. So was making monthly trips to Providence, Rhode Island. And I remember that road. think it might be like Providence Boulevard or something like that. And I remember that road I'd always turn down and I go, I go out of my way to drive by that golf course, cause it just looks so cool, but never got to play it. And to hear.
that type of experience does not surprise me based on what I know of the people of Providence and not a huge golf culture out there. There's some great historic golf courses outside of that one, but that's really cool. That's cool to hear. That's the type of experience you have as a guest at that place. All right. I gave my last group of shout out.
to places that are still fully private. I'm gonna go with my next shout out to those that I'll say, again, trying to avoid the words private, the words public, the word semi-private, the UK model. Right, everyone that listens to show is probably familiar with the UK. We always come back and ask, why can't American courses be this way? Well, I have a smaller list, of course, of places that...
do this quite well. This is not inclusive, so apologize to everybody I missed that's doing good work in this space. I'm very passionate about it and I know there's so many different examples, but, Lock LaBelle.
Matt Considine (43:28.888)
Broom Sedge.
The Professor (43:30.373)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (43:32.386)
which down by your friends at old Barrow. Lido, Pasa Tiempo.
The Professor (43:40.303)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (43:41.944)
one of the OGs and I got the back backstory to how they brought the membership back into existence. It's pretty cool. And then our friends, none other than Sweetens Cove. And so that group, just, that's the piece of their culture that I want to be around. And I want to be a member of those places. Probably more so than the list I just mentioned.
And when you floated this idea of like, hey, we got a lot of responses on the duty pod. Maybe we could do a follow-up talking about some places. You know what I did? I walked to my closet. I looked at where I've bought hats as I'm wearing a land man golf club hat. That's one I just, we just had our summer metal. That's another example we can put into this, the fold here on how they do this. But I looked at my hats. I looked at my polos. I looked at my t-shirts and I looked at just the places that I bought things because for eight years now, professor,
The Professor (44:22.243)
Mmm.
Matt Considine (44:39.82)
those are the places that I've wanted to support a little bit more with a $35 hat or a hundred dollar polo. But it's also something that I look in my closet and it reminds me of the day there. It reminds me of how special a place it is. And I don't know how you can look at these places, look at how much fun they are to be a part of and not realize that their UK model, their ability to have
The Professor (44:44.165)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (45:09.504)
a very desirable membership along with some accessibility for whether it be general public or golf societies or whatever way they'd wanted to do it. And not think that's a factor here. That's a major factor to their culture, to the ethos. And I want to tell one quick story. I ran into a Locke Labelle member. So, you you can still get tee times at Locke Labelle, but they got a great membership. It's a big, I want to say,
summer destination membership. So folks that vacation on the lakes near there, they might own homes, but that's a lot of them. That's who this gentleman was. And he was insulted, Kevin, that we had another group go back for Aaron Hills recently with great, another awesome place to be, could be a part of this conversation. I don't know if they have a membership or not, but he was just like, how did you not stop over and see our place?
We got things, you know, it's so firm out there right now. Our guy has it dialed in. You guys gotta go play. Are you kidding? And I just loved that of the pride of, yeah, I'm a member there, but I'm not proud that you can't play it. I'm proud that you can. I'm proud that you don't need me to get out. go, yeah, you're not gonna play the 8 a.m. on my slot unless I'm with you, but get out and see my golf course so we can talk about it. I just, it reminds me of the UK.
The Professor (46:04.845)
Hmm
Matt Considine (46:34.19)
it comes from the UK model. yeah, Lock the Bell and the Morris family, shout out to Matt and and everything they've done there has has always been a kind of a shining light for the Midwest in my purview. And there's more coming. Proving Ground Golf Club, Ben Cohen of the Walking Golf Society is involved. Mike DeVries is going to build the golf course. They're taking Dun & Dunham Hills in Michigan and turning that into more of this. There will be public play. There will be
The Professor (46:51.985)
That's right.
Matt Considine (47:02.208)
accessibility, but they're going to have a robust membership and the membership dues are going to go a long way to support how they do it. And so will the, you know, tea time revenue line. And, and I, and I just think it's a, it's a symphony that they've, they've orchestrated and it's not easy. I, I'll give the example of broom said, you know, those guys coming from a very passionate place of wanting this for the game of golf, finding
just remarkable land in that Carolina Sand Belt and bringing it into life. I've been fortunate. I don't think they've, they'd mind me mentioning a couple of these gentlemen on the, the pod. I've played golf with them. I know how they feel about the game. I know how they feel about the UK model. But when you get into the financing of this stuff and you get into that early success, we talked about with Orn Bell, it is scary. It is hard to say, man, are we really going to do this? Are we really going to, you know,
The Professor (47:46.538)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (47:58.606)
not go for the 1 % and $150,000 membership or initiation. We're going to try for a 10 or 20 or less if we can. then we're going to open a public play. But I think what we're starting to see happen is that it is good for business. And if you can be conservative enough to set it up correctly and let's face it, reduce some inputs on construction, whether that's no clubhouse or the way that you build your golf course,
The Professor (48:16.954)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (48:28.59)
they're another example of it being done very well. And, and so, the fact that these places are successful means it's here to stay, but also it's just where you want to be, man. That's why I'm talking, you know, that's why I talk about these places more than anywhere else, because it's so fun to be there and you just feel the energy. feel welcomed. As you said in your description earlier,
The Professor (48:43.834)
Yeah.
The Professor (48:51.249)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (48:59.319)
you feel part of something.
The Professor (49:01.489)
Yeah. And I think we need to look no further than Sweeten's Cove for capturing all of that. And, know, probably the best example in the last however many years in the United States of making somewhere fun to be where everyone feels involved. Like they feel like a part of the place. Like why, why does that little shed turn, you know, why is a dam ski the merchandiser of the year? Um, obviously beyond his just creative intellect. It's because when you're there, like you feel like a part of it you want to take that part with you, you want to take it home.
Uh, and any place that can pull that off, cause that is a hard thing to do, right? Like you need all the right moving pieces. You need the right type of golf course. You need the right type of playability. You need the right type of conditioning. And then most importantly, you need the right type of people. You need the right type of people. They're doing what they do every day in the way that they do it. And that is a very, very hard thing to do because it's dependent on the person that's there.
Matt Considine (49:58.412)
I, it's, when I think about sweetens and some of those other examples, you, you can't discredit staff. know we talked about in the duty pod, how staff needs to feel some of that, that same way as members of the need to feel a part of the club. I, and I just have to imagine that this UK model,
members who frankly, if the member is forced to be more conscientious of those non-members and people that are visitors and people that are guests, if they have to be more conscientious, how do you think they're going to be with staff? Probably a lot kinder, probably a lot less neurotic, a lot less introspective or self-interested.
The Professor (50:44.209)
Great point. Yeah.
Matt Considine (50:57.514)
And these places, we were just at Landman for a summer medal. I looked at all the, the survey results, the interactions with staff at that place, being able to know their names and, and seeing that they actually care about you being there and playing your, your own walkup song to the first tee, you know, that they're having fun as a staff. They want to be there.
And so how can you expect, we've all worked at those jobs, right? Where people don't want to be there, customers and staff. It's all one in the same. This culture stuff, it starts from the top when you're in memberships and you're a club, it comes from members. But then if your staff doesn't feel it, you're still going to end up on the uglier side.
Yeah, that's a great point combined in that you really just took my last point and combine it with my prior of what does that UK model, what does that mean? Why is that culture different? I think the staff is definitely a huge factor in how they're treated, appreciated, and a part of it, just like any member would be.
that's pretty good, man. Any others?
The Professor (52:18.755)
All right. I'll give one, I'll give one last grouping, I guess. this grouping and I'll draw on one in particular in terms of elaborating, like places that are just prideful and, and want to share their place. Like you just, when you're there, you just, vibe and you have a great time. I mean, we've said about some other places, but like they're just very prideful of their club. Omaha country club. Fantastic. Again, staff membership.
Matt Considine (52:23.128)
Please.
The Professor (52:46.075)
When I've played out there, like members drive up, what are you thinking of the course? You know, that sort of stuff. Like just so happy that they have that place and that the people are playing at Wachong Valley. Same thing, David Cronheim and you know, what they've done moving that place forward. and just like, they just eat up their golf course. Just, they just love, love, love it. And just every day want to make it better and push it forward. and then what a place that's near and dear to my heart that I could spend most of my life. Lookout Mountain.
Matt Considine (53:15.81)
Yeah.
The Professor (53:16.537)
just like just a quintessential golf day when you're up on the mountain at that club. The, the, the grill room is just one of the most jovial. Everybody's happy. Like everybody's chatting up, chatting you up. You always feel included when you get in there, you get brought into every conversation that's going on, no matter what it's about. You know, it's just everybody's smiling on the golf course. Everybody's smiling and happy. Like they love their course. They love to talk about it.
You almost feel like it's vacation up there every day when you're up there. So shout out, look out mountain and having one of the best courses in the world. And one of the best just hang and days in the world as well, as well, where you just like get on there and you just relax and everything washes away. so shout out to them on that, that as well.
Matt Considine (53:48.899)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (54:04.782)
A couple, hey, if you're gonna do shout outs now, I'm gonna get in some of that I didn't mention. Doones Club, New Buffalo, Michigan. Belvedere Golf Club, way up there in Charlevoix. Mid Pines, Pine Needles, Southern Pines, those members, I love those members that I've run into. They are some of the funnest people. I love to go, I'll throw Pinehurst in there too. Some of the Pinehurst members are.
The Professor (54:19.131)
Yes.
The Professor (54:25.903)
Yeah. Shout out to all the groups that are this compelling, awesome golf that's remaining open and somewhat affordable to public play too, and not just locking down and going fully exclusive private. Shout out to all those across the United States doing that.
Matt Considine (54:38.262)
Yeah, yeah. So some of them are, are destinations. Some of them are succession. There's so much I respect about what they've had to do over the years. Secession. Sorry. I always do that. Gosh. It's a great show too. If you enjoy going back in HBO archives, but, secession, they are one of my favorites.
The Professor (54:44.177)
Socession. Just making sure. Socession, yeah.
The Professor (54:55.579)
Golf, golf, golf, golf, golf, golf forward. Yes. Just,
Matt Considine (54:58.446)
walking, always one of my favorite stories is what do do when you're a walking only golf club? You can't take a car. What do you do if somebody gets hurt or ages out and can't make it 18 holes? I thank that, give them a check and I thank them for being a part of this golf club. I love that. That's always been one of my favorite lines. Yeah, that's enough. guess, oh, small towns. was like a mid-market type ideal I had.
I won't go into all of them, but Cedar Rapids Country Club came to mind. That was a place that hosted Duke Club and we had a wonderful day with their members being a part of it. So, Professor, this was really another fulfilling one. I think it is good to remind, just as you said, I'll end as you started to remind ourselves that it is here. It is happening. There are members and clubs and cultures that
The Professor (55:27.025)
Yeah, great place.
Matt Considine (55:53.526)
are moving the game forward in the best way, holding onto tradition, holding onto values and allowing more of us to be a part of it, allowing their influence across the game of golf to spread. That was a very uplifting show for me personally. So thanks for tossing the idea out there.
The Professor (56:14.233)
Yeah, stick around for round two next episode. I think we're going to, we're going to not speak to specific clubs, but we'll have a few more examples of different ways American golf can grow moving forward. And I'm sure we'll bring up a few golf courses and clubs that are good models for, for ideas there.
Matt Considine (56:33.678)
I'm sure, I'm sure. And thank you to everybody for listening to show. Thanks to our partners at Titleist and the all new T-Series iron. The three Ds, distance control, dispersion control and descent angle. Go get fit, go get your Titleist certified fitter, find them at Titleist.com and thanks for listening to the show. We'll catch up with everybody on the next one.
